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hikingpersonnw
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PostTue Feb 21, 2023 1:36 pm 
peter707 wrote:
kiliki, do you think you can elaborate where/when these trail races/runs are held, you know, so the rest of us can sign up for the trailrun avoid them on our hikes with our heavy & sturdy footwear and long pants? If you are referring to Aspire Adventure Running, https://www.aspireadventurerunning.com/wonderland-circumnavigation-run/, they don't use backcountry camps at all from what I see. They camp at Mowich Lake and White River Campground (parking lots), with one aid station / bail spot at box canyon parking lot.
I am curious too. I was volunteering at Sunrise last year and we had a reserved site at White River (the park will reserve campsites for NPS volunteers, NPS employees, WTA work groups, etc.). However, there were several sites reserved for some type of trail run that was going on. They had support vans and some canopies setup. They were respectful and good campmates, but it was a bit odd to see them getting reserved sites. I am not sure how it works but maybe with their special use permit, they also have the option of getting reserved sites.

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peter707
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PostTue Feb 21, 2023 7:06 pm 
kiliki wrote:
Even at Rainier--I've been disturbed by the way the park has embraced events like trail races/runs put on by concessioners, and the hogging of backcountry campsites by these.
Separately from the drive-in campgrounds discussed above, are there examples of this happening for backcountry campsites?

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vogtski
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PostThu Mar 02, 2023 9:00 am 
Mount Rainier is not the only park with dysfunctional management. Check out this recent comment by 'E. G.' about Great Smokies NP: https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2023/03/reader-participation-day-fee-too-far "It's interesting that a year ago GSMNP administration claimed they were unable to do anything about excessive roadside parking without the funds that parking permits would generate. Yet soon after they announced they were moving forward with their parking fees (still months away from collecting) such simple remedies as posts and guardrails began appearing in the few places where such problems have been common. Obviously these inexpensive steps could have been taken years ago and funded with transportation dollars. The same ploy occurred a decade earlier at GSMNP with the administration purposefully cutting the hours, and refusing offers of help, for the backcountry office. Only a tax on backpackers could cure the problem - especially an easy-to-manufacture problem. And then there's the non-coincidental announcement on this the first day of required parking permits that visitation to GSMNP dropped by more than 1.2 million last year. Visitation was, of course, the primary justification the NPS pushed in pursuit of its parking fees, completely unverifiable and with incredible (in the word's most fundamental, not-to-be-believed sense) data. These guesstimates are available for public scrutiny (https://irma.nps.gov/Stats/SSRSReports/Park%20Specific%20Reports/Monthly...), though a majority seem willing to accept whatever numbers or assertions the NPS puts out. Surely, if only they knew, Americans wouldn't openly support their government blatantly ignoring the law of the land. From the Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act (FLREA): "(b) Basis for recreation fees Recreation fees shall be established in a manner consistent with the following criteria: (1) The amount of the recreation fee shall be commensurate with the benefits and services provided to the visitor." But NPS personnel are forced to admit there will be no limitation on visitors to GSMNP and that, as a result, parking availability cannot be guaranteed anywhere. The park owner/visitor gets nothing in return for his or her forfeited funds; it's simply a money grab by the administration at GSMNP. Additionally, to charge a parking fee for every parking space in GSMNP violates FLREA (d)(4) by limiting the use of recreation opportunities only to areas designated for collection of recreation fees. For this reason, arguably among others, the tax on backpackers is also illegal as there is no way - not a cross-country permit, not a walk-up permit, not an off-season permit, etc. - to avoid the fees of their backcountry reservation system. Of course, there's also the obvious point that a simple parking space doesn't rise to the level of an "Expanded Amenity" (logically, these expanded amenities include frontcountry campgrounds, elaborate boat launches, boat rentals, dump stations, special tours, and the like) but is instead specifically mentioned in FLREA as being appropriate as a "Standard Amenity" - a fee the NPS isn't authorized to charge. And even within the feewheeling NPS, with its self-proclaimed right to charge for parking, its own Reference Manual on such things (22A) includes the following: "There are limited circumstances where it is appropriate for a park to charge a parking fee as an expanded amenity fee. An example might be a park in an urban area that has metered or dispersed parking spaces. In this situation, local commuters could purchase a recreation pass and occupy parking spaces needed by park visitors. Another example is a contract for a concession-operated parking area that does not require the concessioner to honor passes." The examples given above in the NPS' own manual are, to put it bluntly, as far removed from the scenario in GSMNP as possible. At this point it seems very few people realize that their Federal Lands Pass won't be accepted in place of a parking permit at GSMNP, yet Reference Manual 22A states specifically that such passes must be accepted: "Parks have been innovative in charging fees in some areas that had not previously collected fees for entrance or a particular service. For visitors with passes, parking fees have proved to be particularly confusing. For this reason, since the purpose of parking is to gain access to the park's primary resource, the park must honor entrance passes in lieu of the parking fee." I suspect fewer still realize that GSMNP intends for its parking permits/passes to be assigned to individual vehicles, not individuals or families. Therefore, the park owner is supposed to purchase a 2nd permit/pass if he or she drives a different car into GSMNP. The obvious misapplication of simple parking as "Expanded Amenity" is evidenced as well by GSMNP inappropriately offering parking passes (weekly and annual). Few, if any, would expect to be able to purchase a frontcountry camping pass, a boat rental pass, or a special tour pass. But in case it's not self-evident where such expanded amenities are concerned, it's made perfectly clear in Reference Manual 22A: "Parks may not create passes for expanded amenity fees. Parks with existing expanded amenity passes should consult with the regional office to eliminate them. Civic engagement is required because elimination of these passes may result in financial impacts to visitors." Oops. Meanwhile, GSMNP recently issued a Finding of No Significant Impact in its environmental assessment of a mountain biking area it intends to develop. Going with the most destructive of its proposed alternatives, the parking lot will cover 2.4 acres, the access road will extend nearly a mile, and over 25 total acres will be "disturbed" when there already exists an incredible number of mountain bike trails in the area. What's to prevent zip lining from being next? After all, the case could be made that while both are, in essence, thrill-seeking activities unconducive to contemplation and appreciation of nature, zip lining might very well leave a lighter mark on the land than constructing a 12-mile network of mountain bike trails. Here we have another staple of the NPS's dysfunctional approach, expansion and construction while complaining endlessly of having insufficient funds to cover its already existing overdevelopment. Particularly in this case it strikes me that GSNMP is likely eager to further entrench the expectation in peoples' minds that any activity on their public lands carries with it an accompanying fee. At the same time GSMNP has installed license tag readers at its entrances, claiming these Orwellian measures could help locate overdue hikers. Thankfully, the ACLU has actually perked up. If the law doesn't apply to them, it certainly shouldn't come as a surprise that other regulations, restrictions, guidelines, and personal liberties are sloughed off like so much snakeskin. Unchecked, unchallenged authority equates to impudent power which invariably expands and corrupts."

Diagonally parked in a parallel universe
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kiliki
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PostThu Mar 02, 2023 1:59 pm 
peter707 wrote:
kiliki wrote:
I've been disturbed by the way the park has embraced events like trail races/runs put on by concessioners, and the hogging of backcountry campsites by these
kiliki, do you think you can elaborate where/when these trail races/runs are held, you know, so the rest of us can sign up for the trailrun avoid them on our hikes with our heavy & sturdy footwear and long pants? If you are referring to Aspire Adventure Running, https://www.aspireadventurerunning.com/wonderland-circumnavigation-run/, they don't use backcountry camps at all from what I see. They camp at Mowich Lake and White River Campground (parking lots), with one aid station / bail spot at box canyon parking lot.
With Aspire in particular, I could have been confusing the situation at MRNP with that of NCNP. In recent years I was looking at permits for Stehekin-Cascade Pass and it was brought to my attention that Aspire had reserved backcountry campsites on that route. Though it seems just as bad to allow a company to take frontcountry campsites, which are in such high demand and represent the budget option for visitors, for commercial and for-profit purposes. But there are concessioner-guided backpacking tours at Rainier that use backcountry sites. Here are just a couple I snagged from a random Google. https://www.miyaradventures.com/trip/rainier-4-day-backpacking/ https://www.kafadventures.com/hiking-backpacking/mt-rainier-backpacking-yoga/

peter707, vogtski, Walkin' Fool
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Cyclopath
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PostThu Mar 02, 2023 3:18 pm 
cascadeclimber wrote:
But yeah, they have money to install webcams,
Which date incredibly valuable to visitors making a go/no go decision on a 100 mile drive. But yeah, they have their own priorities instead of yours. Shocking.

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Cyclopath
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PostThu Mar 02, 2023 3:52 pm 
kiliki wrote:
there are concessioner-guided backpacking tours at Rainier that use backcountry sites
Those sites should be open to everybody, right?

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hbb
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PostThu Mar 02, 2023 4:09 pm 
kiliki wrote:
But there are concessioner-guided backpacking tours at Rainier that use backcountry sites. Here are just a couple I snagged from a random Google. https://www.miyaradventures.com/trip/rainier-4-day-backpacking/ https://www.kafadventures.com/hiking-backpacking/mt-rainier-backpacking-yoga/
Both of those examples are companies that have Commercial Use Authorizations. Pursuant to the the 2005 Commercial Services Plan, the park accepts applications for up to 5 entities to conduct a single backpacking trip of up to 5 nights, so it's pretty limited. The available camps are limited to designated group sites Mon-Fri nights. Also, the West side of Rainier from 6,000' to 13,500 and the bulk of the Tattosh range and the Stevens Canyon Road corridor are Commerical-Free zones. I get your concern, but unless you want to reserve a group site midweek in an area outside the Commercial-Free Zones, these guided backpacking trips have no impact on campsite availability.

jaysway, kiliki
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hbb
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PostThu Mar 02, 2023 4:22 pm 
hikingpersonnw wrote:
However, there were several sites reserved for some type of trail run that was going on. They had support vans and some canopies setup. They were respectful and good campmates, but it was a bit odd to see them getting reserved sites. I am not sure how it works but maybe with their special use permit, they also have the option of getting reserved sites.
White River is still first-come first-served, even for entities with a Commercial Use Authorization. The only campgrounds CUA holders can reserve in advance are group sites at Cougar Rock and Ohanapecosh Sun-Thurs, and they are still competing with the public for reservations.

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hikingpersonnw
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PostFri Mar 03, 2023 10:02 am 
hbb wrote:
White River is still first-come first-served, even for entities with a Commercial Use Authorization. The only campgrounds CUA holders can reserve in advance are group sites at Cougar Rock and Ohanapecosh Sun-Thurs, and they are still competing with the public for reservations.
FWIW, they had reserved signs on the campsites (the same type that are used for employees, volunteers and associated groups with the NPS logo). I suppose it's possible it was some type of organized ultra run for NPS employees or a volunteer group. In November I saw a sign at White River, that it will no longer be first come first served and switch to reservations. I haven't seen anything update on the website to indicate that, yet.

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JimmyBob
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PostFri Mar 03, 2023 12:06 pm 
hikingpersonnw wrote:
In November I saw a sign at White River, that it will no longer be first come first served and switch to reservations. I haven't seen anything update on the website to indicate that, yet.
Unfortunately the park services think that telling the public about park status/rules via the official park website isn't important to them. They prefer twitter and facebook, which I think is terrible.

uww, vogtski
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Randito
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PostSat Mar 04, 2023 4:28 pm 
JimmyBob wrote:
hikingpersonnw wrote:
In November I saw a sign at White River, that it will no longer be first come first served and switch to reservations. I haven't seen anything update on the website to indicate that, yet.
Unfortunately the park services think that telling the public about park status/rules via the official park website isn't important to them. They prefer twitter and facebook, which I think is terrible.
Based on my experience supporting corporate run websites,, I'm certain that it is far easier and faster for NPS personnel to post updates to Twitter than posting an update on the NPS website. I think that labeling this as "something not important to them" is more an indication of your ignorance of the overhead involved maintaining and updating a "traditional" website such as the NPS website. I see the use of Twitter by NPS personnel as an honest effort by dedicated NPS folks to more effectively and efficiently communicate park conditions to the public and I applaud them for it.

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kiliki
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PostSat Mar 04, 2023 5:31 pm 
Going back to the housing issue, I didn't realize that it was the recently passed LODGE Act that allows the government to lease employee housing outside the park. A lot of NPs are trying this. https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2022/09/lodge-act-could-help-provide-housing-national-park-service-staff (This was written before it passed). It will be interesting to see if it's successful. The co-sponsor from Utah said DOD has been successful doing this outside army bases in Utah, but it's hard for me to imagine the owners of short-term rentals in gateway towns outside national parks taking the lower amounts of a long term rental (plus Airbnbs may not have to meet the same requirements that a government rental does).

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JimmyBob
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PostWed Mar 08, 2023 3:56 pm 
Randito wrote:
I'm certain that it is far easier and faster for NPS personnel to post updates to Twitter than posting an update on the NPS website.
The NPS website should then include that feed directly, it'll go to both/all places automatically.

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PostThu Mar 09, 2023 2:11 pm 
JimmyBob wrote:
The NPS website should then include that feed directly, it'll go to both/all places automatically.
Agreed, but honestly it should go the other way. It is not difficult to make a 'blog' page that can do simple and fast updated text posts and autoposts to social media.

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Randito
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PostFri Mar 10, 2023 12:26 am 
JimmyBob wrote:
Randito wrote:
I'm certain that it is far easier and faster for NPS personnel to post updates to Twitter than posting an update on the NPS website.
The NPS website should then include that feed directly, it'll go to both/all places automatically.
How many websites have you built and maintained in the course of your career?

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