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vogtski
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PostSun Dec 18, 2022 11:15 pm 
Bruce Albert wrote:
OK, thank you. What is, is, but a number of questions immediately come to mind: Stated current hire of 100/120 positions is 83% staffed up by my math. While all can't jump into plows of course, I'd love to see an accounting of what those 100 people do.
Good question; good luck getting a good answer. I had the same one years ago, when Randy King was super (and one of the better ones, IMO). Repeated emails to the park went unanswered. Over the phone I was told the superintendent had to approve the release of budget information. I requested a pie chart showing how the annual appropriation was divided between Divisions ('Operations', Maintenance, Interpretation, Science, etc.) and an organization chart with the phone numbers redacted. After several months of no cooperation, I complained to the FOIA office in D.C. Six weeks later I received from MRNP a single photocopied page, where a single line showing only the total annual appropriation for Rainier was highlighted in a national list of parks. Talk about the federal 'index salute'. I still feel insulted after all these years! NPS management feels that how they spend money is none of the taxpayer's business. I'd be happy to be proved wrong, if anyone out there has the energy for this sort of pig-wrestling.

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fourteen410
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PostSun Dec 18, 2022 11:53 pm 
I cringe whenever I hear employers bemoaning "staffing shortages". They're not staffing shortages, they're wage shortages.

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kiliki
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PostMon Dec 19, 2022 9:25 am 
fourteen410 wrote:
I cringe whenever I hear employers bemoaning "staffing shortages". They're not staffing shortages, they're wage shortages.
I generally agree, but Congress sets the pay. It's not like a park can just decide to pay more. And the housing part is real.
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Housing. I find this a bit puzzling in the wintertime. I'd guess that in summer there are quite a few beds for seasonal NPS and seasonal concession employees. Do many of these not go unused in the wintertime with reduced employee populations? Maybe Big Lou could kick in a portion of the guides bunkhouse if there is such a thing.
You are overestimating the number of people that are willing to live in dorm/seasonal housing. I did that when I was young. I would not do that now (especially knowing how crappy most park housing is). Grown-ups have spouses, kids, pets. They want to own their own home and build wealth. NPS jobs generally pay less than equivalent jobs outside national parks. Why would someone with a CDI and experience plowing want to live in a dorm in Ashford? Wsdot was also short plow drivers in recent years. I'm sure there are plenty of municipalities that are too. This is why it's been so hard to fill jobs like waste water management, law enforcement and high voltage electrician too. To some extent (housing has always been an issue) year-round employees used to be able to live in gateway communities, where they could potentially buy a home, send their kids to school, have a dog, build wealth. With the rise of short term rentals that's not really possible anymore. My good friend who works at Sequoia NP has been displaced 3 times as the owner of her rentals has converted them to Airbnb. The gateway town of Three Rivers has 3000 people and almost 800 Airbnbs. So now she's faced with the choice of putting herself on the waiting list for park housing which is an hour's drive inside the park from town, plus you have to deal with the entrance line--there's no shortcut for staff. That, or leave. I don't know the numbers for Ashford but when I look at Airbnb/VRBO there is a LOT there.

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gb
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PostMon Dec 19, 2022 9:26 am 
fourteen410 wrote:
I cringe whenever I hear employers bemoaning "staffing shortages". They're not staffing shortages, they're wage shortages.
But the government works on a budget and is not nimble on pay to compete. The best would still be a short term hiring and lodging compensation package from Congress or perhaps the Administration could move some money around. The impact on the local economy is likely huge.

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jinx'sboy
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PostMon Dec 19, 2022 10:07 am 
kiliki wrote:
And the housing part is real. You are overestimating the number of people that are willing to live in dorm/seasonal housing. I did that when I was young. I would not do that now (especially knowing how crappy most park housing is). Grown-ups have spouses, kids, pets. They want to own their own home and build wealth. NPS jobs generally pay less than equivalent jobs outside national parks. Why would someone with a CDI and experience plowing want to live in a dorm in Ashford? Wsdot was also short plow drivers in recent years. I'm sure there are plenty of municipalities that are too. This is why it's been so hard to fill jobs like waste water management, law To some extent (housing has always been an issue) year-round employees used to be able to live in gateway communities, where they could potentially buy a home, send their kids to school, have a dog, build wealth. With the rise of short term rentals that's not really possible anymore. My good friend who works at Sequoia NP has been displaced 3 times as the owner of her rentals has converted them to Airbnb. The gateway town of Three Rivers has 3000 people and almost 800 Airbnbs. So now she's faced with the choice of putting herself on the waiting list for park housing which is an hour's drive inside the park from town, plus you have to deal with the entrance line--there's no shortcut for staff. That, or leave. I don't know the numbers for Ashford but when I look at Airbnb/VRBO there is a LOT there.
EXACTLY! This same situation is on-going through out all the land management agencies, not just the NPS and not just at MRNP. And the same thing is happening in the wild land fire fighting world. The usual seasonal worker that one might see working in a campground or on trails is a GS 3, 4 or 5. That is around $13-17/hour. A supervisor, longer term term seasonal or permanent type is likely a GS 7 or 9 …..so $19-24 per hour. The ‘Ranger’, with law enforcement duties that you meet in the field is in that $25/hr range, too. (There is a 15-20% boost for being in the Seattle or Portland area, but I think the Park is outside that zone). The road crew positions might be a little higher paid. As kiliki notes, that isn’t enough to consider supporting a family, much less buying a home in the gateway community. Nor even enough for single people starting out. This past year I know the local FS in the Methow had seasonal employees camped in their cars. So, it isn’t just a problem in the Park….it is in Chelan, Leavenworth, Bend, Mammoth, Jackson Hole, etc - every nice or desirable location around the west. I also think this exact situation is going to seriously degrade the wildland fire fighting response capability in the future. The salaries and classification of all these positions is set Nationally. A Park Superintendent has little room to simply raise wages, or reclassify jobs, to garner more applicants. “More money” isn’t the answer.

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cascadeclimber
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PostMon Dec 19, 2022 11:34 am 
HikingBex wrote:
seems like some cognitive dissonance going on here... pay is a huge part of recruitment, especially with their admitted lack of affordable housing. really disappointing that they don't have a solid plan to turn the situation around.
That's a generous term for it. "bullsh##" would be another. What I don't see addressed anywhere is that this is not unique to 2022. They have blamed staffing issues for public access restrictions for over a decade. I certainly hope we aren't being fed the, "Well, we're new here so we see this as a new problem." It's not. Access to Paradise in winter and the closing schedule of the 410 entrance have been blamed on staffing for well over a decade now. Was there a public announcement about this 'meeting'? Edit to add: Did anyone ask them if the commercial (guide) services were being held to the same restrictions, or if they are once again getting access to Paradise when it's closed to the public?

If not now, when?
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fourteen410
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PostMon Dec 19, 2022 1:13 pm 
I get that MRNP doesn't set the pay. But the park's narrative seems to end full stop at "we have a staffing shortage". If the messaging were "we have a staffing shortage because don't have the $ for decent wages, please write your congressperson", the public could get on board. The current messaging is just deflection. The comment that the "park isn't closed" is so tone deaf. That's like turning off the screens in a movie theater but telling patrons it's not closed because the concessions are still selling popcorn.

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Kim Brown
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PostMon Dec 19, 2022 2:34 pm 
fourteen410 wrote:
But the park's narrative seems to end full stop at "we have a staffing shortage". If the messaging were "we have a staffing shortage because don't have the $ for decent wages, please write your congressperson"
I don't think they are allowed to suggest writing to congress. The public has the burden of figuring that out. It is that because in voting, the public has spoken, and NPS works for the public, who have supplied the bosses; if wages are low, it's because those the public elected to run the show are running it as they said they would. If the public wants that to change, the public needs to speak up to make those changes.. If The Mountaineers and other organizations were in on the zoom meeting, they can put the word out to their members to call.

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert

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kiliki
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kiliki
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PostMon Dec 19, 2022 2:51 pm 
fourteen410 wrote:
I get that MRNP doesn't set the pay. But the park's narrative seems to end full stop at "we have a staffing shortage". If the messaging were "we have a staffing shortage because don't have the $ for decent wages, please write your congressperson", the public could get on board. The current messaging is just deflection. The comment that the "park isn't closed" is so tone deaf. That's like turning off the screens in a movie theater but telling patrons it's not closed because the concessions are still selling popcorn.
As mentioned, that's not something park managers can say and continue to have a career. It's not so different than many workplace situations. If you are any kind of manager and your higher ups/corporate office make staff cuts or otherwise make your job harder, you don't spend your days complaining to your customers about the company. You'd be fired. It's part of the job to figure out how to put a positive spin on it.

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PostTue Dec 20, 2022 11:20 am 
I was up at Paradise 12/18. Rangers were out searching for an overdue party of snowshoers who failed to return to their car the prior night. Turns out these bozos were camped for the night, but because they did not register for a permit, park staff had no idea what was going on and had to assume they were lost. Nonsense like that definitely doesn't help anything.

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PostTue Dec 20, 2022 12:24 pm 
I am not aware of guide services getting special access to Paradise, but I learn something new every year I volunteer for the park. The IMG trainings mentioned are scheduled for late April/early May, by which point many summer seasonal employees are starting and the climbing rangers have been training, usually for several weeks by then. NWAC forecasting staff have "admin" access to Paradise and will sometimes use this to conduct field observations.

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PostTue Dec 20, 2022 6:08 pm 
Some snippets from then superintendent Randy King in November, 2013, when they curtailed access to Paradise, but didn't go as far as closing it M-F. For anyone who wasn't paying attention then, he has been quoted as saying the curtailment of access was due to staffing issue, and in other places he was saying it was a budget issue. "The answer to your second question is, no, access to Paradise will not be available to the park's guide services when the road is otherwise closed to public vehicle access." "I instituted the Tuesday - Wednesday gate closure at Longmire this past winter because we did not have enough snow plow operators and rangers to safety staff and operate seven days a week." "I'll follow your suggestion to hold additional public meetings in Tacoma and Seattle if similar circumstances arise in the future." "Regarding your staffing question, staffing is driven by budget." (My question: Also, I was told by a staff member on Saturday that the current closure is due to inadequate staffing, not budget. He was quite firm about this. Can you please explain why his perception would differ so significantly from yours?) My positions on this: 1. The constant rotation of park superintendents should not be used to invalidate commitments made by them. 2. Their failure to hire adequate winter staff is a decade-old problem; it's not new, it's not unforeseeable, and it certainly shouldn't come as any sort of surprise to a competent manager.

If not now, when?

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Bruce Albert
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PostTue Dec 20, 2022 9:57 pm 
cascadeclimber wrote:
1. The constant rotation of park superintendents should not be used to invalidate commitments made by them. 2. Their failure to hire adequate winter staff is a decade-old problem; it's not new, it's not unforeseeable, and it certainly shouldn't come as any sort of surprise to a competent manager.
Agreed. There should be a set of service standards set and met by whoever is supe de jour. They need to be realistic and the money there to reach them. One such standard to me would be daily opening of the Paradise Road, extreme storm condition exception permitted. If this is on the list and fairly budgeted then implementation is a function of attitude and details on everyone's part from the supe on down.. Slightly but not totally OT, a similar issue - lack of staffing to run the mountain coupled with a transparency and accountability failure nothing short of horrible - sent the last Stevens GM deservedly packing. And I still wanna know what the 100 people on staff do all day, every day. I understand that there are going to be lots of people, useful people that, like in a ski area, the casual eye doesn't see or know exist. There will be HR, AP, water treatment, wastewater treatment, building maintenance, motor pool, and a host of others that are not expendable, plus God knows how many tiers of managers and assistants-to. But I cling to a notion that just a few of that 100 could be successfully and happily reassigned to snow removal in the spirit of accomplishing a necessary mission and having the road open. I also reiterate that Jan, Feb, March, they're gonna pretty much have to keep it plowed all week to have any hope of opening weekends. Given any sort of typical snowfall/wind conditions, there will be far too much to simply hog it out on Fridays. This necessity will leave us with a plowed road closed to the public because...it's not plowed?

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PostTue Dec 20, 2022 10:38 pm 
I wonder how many of the Monday morning quarterbacks on this thread have ever managed an organization with more than 50 people.

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vogtski
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PostThu Dec 22, 2022 7:25 pm 
Seems to me it might be useful to document how Mount Rainier used to be. I was the only volunteer at Paradise for three winters in the mid 70's. The park had five plows then. One was a ten-yard dumptruck with a 'V'-shaped blade; three others were five-yard trucks, one of which was often broken down. All were surplus from the Navy at Bremerton and much less powerful than today's plows. There was also a new one-ton truck with a blade and sander that was usually used to clear Longmire and the road to the entrance. The park also had two old Idaho-Norland twin-diesel rotary blowers, one of which was usually cannibalized to keep the other running. Two rangers lived in apartments in the old 'saucer' visitor center. They would sometimes radio that the power was out. This was long before the power & coms were buried in the road. I was a better skier than any of the rangers and would draw the fun job of skiing the power line from Paradise to Ricksecker Point to check for fallen trees and breaks while a ranger snowshoed from Longmire to Cougar Rock looking for problems, then would also glass the inaccessible power line portion between Ricksecker and the Paradise River confluence. It was quite a thrill to ride in the first big plow and watch the huge 'bow wakes' of snow fly off both sides into the darkness as it roared right up the middle of the road at 30-35 mph. The smaller plows would follow on each side, sometimes falling behind to clear turnouts. I would jump out at Cougar Rock to move and reset the simple barricades signed "Road closed - Equipment Working". Partial openings were SOP on weekdays; it was usually possible for the public to drive the first two miles to Cougar Rock, with it's somewhat better snow conditions, while the plows were working higher up, unless it was snowing hard down low. Narada Falls was often open to the public as soon as the road was cleared that far, a real boon for Tatoosh trips. The equipment sheds at Narada usually held the working rotary, a bulldozer, and a refueling pickup. The dozer was sometimes used to clear small slides, but more often in midwinter was used to lower the snowberms when they got too high for the rotary. This lowering was done on days with little new accumulation. As soon as the lower (W) Paradise parking lot was cleared, the road was opened to the public on weekdays, weather permitting, while the road crew tackled the main lot, which took about as long to clear as the rest of the road combined. After the upper lot was cleared, the road crew took a long, well-deserved break while pilgrims reached paradise. Modern management does not usually open the Longmire gate until the road crew has returned to Longmire, adding at least a half hour to the opening time. If they had used the old VC utilities for a new winterized comfort station and were willing to consider partial weekday openings, they could shave much more time off the public's wait. This would also help with summer congestion by reducing the public's cruising in search of a flush toilet. 4WD & AWD drive vehicles were not common then; the road foreman had the only 4WD pickup on this side of the park. The rangers all drove GSA Ford station wagons rigged as ambulances and had to chain up like everyone else. The chain-up rule was not strictly enforced, but those who had an accident without them got an expensive reckless driving citation. A contracted tow truck was on duty weekends/holidays and the park tolerated chain installers plying their trade. Rather than hassle people for being late, the rangers left the Longmire gate combo on windshields. The road foreman budgeted overtime for plow drivers on weekends/holidays and two heavy equipment mechanics worked Friday and Saturday nights to keep all that ancient iron operating. The winter's road sand was stored at Cougar Rock picnic area and groomed by the loader there to double as a kid's snowplay when Paradise could not be opened. For the past several years management could not be bothered to have the Paradise snowplay open over Christmas or Spring Break. Superintendents lasted about five years, and some of the District Rangers stayed over ten years. Compare that to the modern 'itinerant manager class', whose top priority seems to be getting their ticket punched for their next promotion every 2-3 years (see carbonj's comment on page 2 of this thread). According to his bio, The current super held 10 different jobs over 30 years and was run out of his Yukon-Charley job for heavy-handed law enforcement and insensitivity to local interests. "...they felt they were treated as second-class citizens by Dudgeon, who showed little regard for the Alaska way of life, and they wish the communities around Mount Rainier well as he takes over the large national park near Seattle." https://mustreadalaska.com/controversial-park-service-supervisor-promoted-to-mount-rainier-park-post/ I find it disgraceful that Paradise is scheduled to be open fewer days the remainder of this winter than the total number of closed days most winters in the 70's.

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