Forum Index > Trail Talk > Is there a limit to how many dogs you can walk off leash in unincorporated Snohomish County?
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Randito
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Randito
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PostTue Mar 14, 2023 7:13 am 
Mountainpines wrote:
Blame the owner, not the dog for jumping. Any dog showing an aggressive behavior shouldnít be taken on trails anyway.
I do blame the owner:
Randito wrote:
The dog owner in that WTA report would certainly get a lot of yes vote in Reddit's AITA forum
I prefer to live in the real world, where dealing with irresponsible/inconsiderate or even hostile people is a possibility and the boy scout in me says "Be prepared" I've observed other cyclists use halt effectively to fend off "farm dogs" giving chase along country roads.

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RumiDude
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PostTue Mar 14, 2023 3:12 pm 
Mountainpines wrote:
Do you like to use pepper spray on yourself? Thatís strange. Blame the owner, not the dog for jumping. Any dog showing an aggressive behavior shouldnít be taken on trails anyway.
Well yea, I think we can all agree that it is the dog owners which are at fault in these matters. Unfortunately it is the dogs which are actually doing the unwanted actions. Thus it is entirely reasonable to pepper spray them or to use other tactics to keep the dogs off you. And as noted before, dog owners are often oblivious or just plain don't care that their animals are bothering others. I wouldn't want pepper spray used on me, but if I was uncaring enough (stupid enough) to physically manhandle another hiker, it would not surprise me that they used pepper spay on me ... or worse. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Mountainpines
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Mountainpines
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PostTue Mar 14, 2023 3:21 pm 
Unless the dog is aggressive there is NO reason to use pepper spray. Thatís unreasonable period. And I do enjoy trails where there are no dogs. Some trails are overrun with dogs.

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Cyclopath
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PostTue Mar 14, 2023 6:28 pm 
vogtski wrote:
What can you do when offending dogs are apparently part of the trail system? https://www.wta.org/go-hiking/trip-reports/trip_report.2023-02-25.4072691237
That's ... a little over the top, but informative. The idea of skiing through groomed poop is especially nasty.

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Randito
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Randito
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PostTue Mar 14, 2023 6:57 pm 
Mountainpines wrote:
Unless the dog is aggressive there is NO reason to use pepper spray. Thatís unreasonable period.
It would seem that you didn't bother to read the WTA trip report link, where the dogs repeatedly were shoving their noses in the posters crotch -- and the dog owner was indifferent and dismissive and requests to call the dogs away. What is unreasonable is failing to control an animal that is invading a person's space and worse ignoring requests to call the dogs off -- that is beyond the pale. In that scenario I think the poster is more than justified in using pepper spray or even more aggressive means to protect themselves.

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neek
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PostTue Mar 14, 2023 8:18 pm 
Randito wrote:
In that scenario I think the poster is more than justified in using pepper spray or even more aggressive means to protect themselves.
That's not aggression, it's just the dog getting to know you. Say "off" and push them away if you don't like it. Also what do you have in mind by "more aggressive means"?

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Randito
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PostTue Mar 14, 2023 9:03 pm 
neek wrote:
That's not aggression, it's just the dog getting to know you. Say "off" and push them away if you don't like it. Also what do you have in mind by "more aggressive means"?
Did you read the WTA link? It seems not. The poster did not want the dog shoving it's nose in their crotch. From the description it wasn't simply sniffing at a distance, there was physical contract. I view that as unacceptable canine behavior. Please explain why you think it is acceptable for dogs to shove their nose into someone's crotch or jump up on them, possibly knocking them down. Where would you draw the line? Only when a dog bites?

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zimmertr
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zimmertr
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PostTue Mar 14, 2023 9:09 pm 
This happened to me on 3/1 as well while running. I just kneed the dog away and glared at the owner. Pepper spraying the animal would have been pointless escalation. Obviously the dog should have been on a leash. But it doesn't deserve to get capsaicin in its eyes and (very delicate) sinuses over the encounter. I don't want to imagine the suffering and confusion that would cause them. Getting chased on a bike would be a completely different situation. Since the chase instinct might evoke actual aggression and dangerous behavior in the animal. TBH I found the Goldie jumping up on my torso repeatedly earlier in the run more annoying.

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RumiDude
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PostTue Mar 14, 2023 9:16 pm 
neek wrote:
Randito wrote:
In that scenario I think the poster is more than justified in using pepper spray or even more aggressive means to protect themselves.
That's not aggression, it's just the dog getting to know you. Say "off" and push them away if you don't like it. Also what do you have in mind by "more aggressive means"?
Would that be your reaction if another person did the same thing? But somehow we are supposed to just put up with a dog doing similar as the owner either ignores it or tells us "don't be nervous". I have learned to not tolerate any dog that gets too frisky with me even if it is friendly. This decision has evolved over the years and many encounters. I give a loud aggressive "NO!" if the dog is persistent. That almost always backs a dog away and then the owner realizes I am not going to tolerate any of that crap. If the dog(s) approach again to continue the same behavior then they get another even louder and aggressive "NO!" Depending on the situation, I will likely position my trekking poles in a defensive manner while telling the owner to get the dog away from me. When a dog owner refuses to take control of their animal that is bothering another person, that itself is aggressive behavior of the owner. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."

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Cyclopath
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PostTue Mar 14, 2023 10:14 pm 
RumiDude wrote:
Would that be your reaction if another person did the same thing? But somehow we are supposed to just put up with a dog
A human putting their face in your genitals against your will is sexual assault. A dog putting their face in your crotch is not rape. I can't believe this needs to be explained.

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neek
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PostWed Mar 15, 2023 5:47 am 
Rumi, that seems fine. What I said was that, in the situation described in the WTA post, pepper spray would have been inappropriate. Randito, answer my question first and I'll consider answering yours.

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Randito
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Randito
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PostWed Mar 15, 2023 8:25 am 
neek wrote:
Randito, answer my question first and I'll consider answering yours.
I answered your first question. The second answer should be obvious, striking the dog with a club or killing it with a firearm. Dogs running amuck and jumping on people is completely unacceptable canine behavior. A dog owner that allows their animals to do that can't dismiss it with "oh their friendly" they are simply irresponsible and inconsiderate. RCW allows for the killing of dogs that are at large and harassing livestock. https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=16.08.020
Quote:
It shall be lawful for any person who shall see any dog or dogs chasing,..on any public highway, to kill such dog or dogs, .
Are you asserting that humans have less rights to be free of canine harassment than sheep?

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neek
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PostWed Mar 15, 2023 8:34 am 
Wow...ok, well, I appreciate the honesty at least. And I'll hold up my end of the bargain -
Randito wrote:
Did you read the WTA link? It
Yes.

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Randito
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Randito
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PostWed Mar 15, 2023 9:00 am 
neek wrote:
Wow...ok, well, I appreciate the honesty at least. And I'll hold up my end of the bargain -
Randito wrote:
Did you read the WTA link? It
Yes.
Yes, so now answer my follow up questions, do humans have fewer rights than sheep? You also never answered an earlier question of where you would draw the line on what level of dog aggression would warrant in your mind use of pepper spray on a dog, you asserted that merely shoving it's nose in someone's crotch was insufficient. What would a dog need to do ? Bite? Exactly where would you draw the line?

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Sculpin
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PostWed Mar 15, 2023 9:14 am 
neek wrote:
Say "off" and push them away if you don't like it.
One of the "cowboy wisdom" proverbs is: if you are starting to feel like an important man, try ordering someone else's dog around. I have never succeeded in getting a friendly dog to retreat by barking orders at it. I have launched a couple over the years, but even that does not always work. I like dogs and generally invite friendly ones to approach me, although I have regretted it a few times. But my wife hates to be jumped on by dogs and she is half my size. What would you do if yelling "no" and pushing the dog away just made it more excited and a companion half your size was in danger of getting knocked over?

Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir

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