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fourteen410
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PostThu Feb 23, 2023 4:06 pm 
Saw this article in the Seattle Times today and thought it might be of interest: The Race to Waterproof Your Outdoor Gear Without Toxic Chemicals I've been blissfully naive and never put much thought into waterproof jackets. I suppose it's not surprising. Per the article, it sounds like many outdoor retailers plan to start selling water repellent jackets in lieu of waterproof ones. A lawsuit pertaining to this issue was filed against REI last fall: https://www.cmbg3.com/library/REI-Lawsuit.pdf Personally, I can't stand water repellent gear. Waterproof goretex is the only thing that works for me, but now I'm wondering if the health risks are worth it. Anyone else concerned about this?

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HitTheTrail
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PostThu Feb 23, 2023 5:24 pm 
Goretex fabric is not waterproof in and of itself. You have to apply DWR treatment to make it waterproof. And DWR is known to physically wear off with use so you have to re-apply the stuff periodically to stay dry. The only truly waterproof materials are things like plastic, or dyneema that will not breath at all. And they will wet out on the inside from body perspiration. I don't know how toxic DWR is, but in my opinion, the best solution is to get a breathable fabric like Goretex and just re-apply DWR every few trips. When water is no longer beading up on the jacket it needs more DWR.

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Cyclopath
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PostThu Feb 23, 2023 5:37 pm 
Modern DWR is dramatically less durable than the old stuff, but much more environmentally friendly (as far as we currently know). All of Arc'teryx recent jackets use the new DWR and probably most other top shelf manufacturers. ShakeDry doesn't need DWR and is fantastic, but fragile too.
fourteen410 wrote:
Personally, I can't stand water repellent gear. Waterproof goretex is the only thing that works for me, but now I'm wondering if the health risks are worth it.
For me it depends what I'm doing. If I'm moving I almost always prefer a soft shell (wind and water resistant) over a hard shell. Because it breathes so much better and is just more comfortable all around. But if I'm not moving like a lunch stop or photos, or if it's really nasty, then yeah GTX. I probably wear it less than 10% of the time but it's in my pack most of the time when I'm out.

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Randito
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PostThu Feb 23, 2023 7:07 pm 
Isn't this a bit like the California prop 65 warnings that warn of "potentially cancer causing" substances on a huge range of items, including wood sawdust.

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Cyclopath
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PostThu Feb 23, 2023 8:12 pm 

vogtski
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Shred
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PostThu Feb 23, 2023 8:36 pm 
“Including wood sawdust” MDF, Micro laminates, OSB, and any engineered wood building product has adhesives that are certainly not good for your health.

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Malachai Constant
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PostThu Feb 23, 2023 9:01 pm 
The problem with prop 65is that it has no threshold. Millions of people chew Coca leaves with no apparent I’ll effects on the other hand Crack will get you down down in the ground.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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thunderhead
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PostThu Feb 23, 2023 10:40 pm 
Sigh. My search for the perfect rain shell continues. Scratch that. It doesnt need to be perfect. I will settle for it to be halfway decent at this point. Over any sustained period of time, goretex isnt waterproof and isnt breathable and isnt durable. Maybe the week after you buy it? Even with the old "environmentally unfriendly" DWR i never thought goretex lasted long. I put that in quotes because i doubt reapplying the new crappy DWR all the time and then throwing out the jacket cause it still doesnt work is any good for the environment. Non-breathable with big zips seems to be the way to go. It also needs to be long enough to cover my waist, and have pockets. Lightheart gear and antigravity gear are supposed to be pretty good but lack pockets and are not long enough. Im on a columbia outdry at the moment which at least has pockets, but is about 5 inches too short. Durability is way better than goretex but is a question mark. Why is it so hard to design a good shell for people in humid cool climates?

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Randito
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PostThu Feb 23, 2023 10:54 pm 
Shred wrote:
“Including wood sawdust” MDF, Micro laminates, OSB, and any engineered wood building product has adhesives that are certainly not good for your health.
Prop 65 requires warning about sawdust from natural wood with no adhesives. It's true that exposure to wood sawdust in an industrial setting -- say a sawmill processing raw logs will certainly result in lung issues over the course of a career when no protective equipment is used. However prop 65 warnings are required when exposure is only incidental. It's tricky to objectively evaluate the risks of various items when there is money to be made by either hyping or poo pooing legitimate concerns.

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fourteen410
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PostFri Feb 24, 2023 12:25 am 
HitTheTrail wrote:
Goretex fabric is not waterproof in and of itself. You have to apply DWR treatment to make it waterproof. And DWR is known to physically wear off with use so you have to re-apply the stuff periodically to stay dry.
I'm curious, why does GoreTex work better than other waterproofing if it's just another fabric with a DWR application? My GT jackets definitely don't keep me as dry as I'd like, but they're far better than other jackets I've owned (Marmot Precip comes to mind). If I recall correctly, forever chemicals/PFAS are already in the bloodstream of 99% of the population. I'd like to limit further exposure if I can, but it seems pretty challenging to do in the modern world.

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Malachai Constant
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PostFri Feb 24, 2023 1:00 am 
The most waterproof goretex jacket is a Moonstone boarding jacket I got on clearance when they closed the outlet in North Bend. Problem is it is heavy and stiff. I never put DWP on it. Truth of the matter is nothing can breathe when covered with a film of liquid water. You pay your money and take your chances.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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texasbb
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PostFri Feb 24, 2023 9:44 am 
Shred wrote:
“Including wood sawdust” MDF, Micro laminates, OSB, and any engineered wood building product has adhesives that are certainly not good for your health.
Malachai Constant wrote:
The problem with prop 65is that it has no threshold. Millions of people chew Coca leaves with no apparent I’ll effects on the other hand Crack will get you down down in the ground.
It would be more manageable for California to list everything the state doesn't think causes cancer. Prop 65 is the poster child for senseless, useless, obtrusive laws.

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Waterman
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PostFri Feb 24, 2023 9:56 am 
Rain jackets have always been a disappointment in the long run. The old 60/40 parkas back in the days of yore worked pretty good so long as the scotch guard was applied yearly. Looking at the Filson rain jacket, wax paraffin cotten aka tin cloth. Wee bit heavier than I like.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,I took the one less traveled by. And that has made all the difference. Robert Frost
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Cyclopath
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PostFri Feb 24, 2023 10:23 am 
fourteen410 wrote:
I'm curious, why does GoreTex work better than other waterproofing if it's just another fabric with a DWR application?
The membrane in Goretex provides the waterproof. DWR prevents the face fabric from getting saturated with water and reducing breathability (to near zero). This is why ShakeDry Goretex is waterproof with just the membrane and no face.

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Cyclopath
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PostFri Feb 24, 2023 10:25 am 
Randito wrote:
Prop 65 requires
Nice thread hijack. down.gif

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