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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 11279 | TRs | Pics
Location: Don't move here |
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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 Tue May 16, 2023 2:56 pm |
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| Tom wrote: | | Almost 43 years to the date... |
Yup. Still have my ash collection that I swept off my Datsun.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
 Randito
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
Randito
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altasnob
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Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 1412 | TRs | Pics
Location: Tacoma |
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altasnob
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Tue May 16, 2023 3:38 pm |
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| adamschneider wrote: | | That map of the tunnel is wrong. The Spirit Lake tunnel discharges its water BELOW the road, near the bottom of that waterfall. |
That appears to be correct. But logic would still say dumping the contents of Spirit Lake into this creek bed WAS the likely cause of this landslide. If you dig out below a slope, it weakens the slope above. Water erodes and adding a lot of water to the creek bed erodes it at an unnatural rate.
I wonder if the State/Feds will own up to this fact that the tunnel is the cause of this landslide, and will likely cause future landslides at other places on this road.
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altasnob
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Joined: 29 Aug 2007
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Location: Tacoma |
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altasnob
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Tue May 16, 2023 3:47 pm |
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| treeswarper wrote: | | Ummmm, the communities downstream were established before much was known about the volcano. Should we evacuate the Nisqually drainage also? Parts of Tacoma? Everything that is likely to be destroyed when Rainier sends a lahar down the hill? |
The Spirit Lake tunnel isn't there to protect from a future eruption. It is there to drain Spirit Lake today. Without it, Spirit Lake would drain down the North Fork of the Toutle River (where it has always drained). The problem with this is the area is so unstable with debris and dead logs, that a dam would form, the lake level would rise, and eventually, the dam would fail catastrophically. This would repeat until finally the natural channel was deep enough that dams would no longer form. This is all natural and would occur if man didn't manipulate this area.
The purpose of the tunnel is to end those repeated natural events described above. But it appears to me as a bandaid fix that will not work long term and will lead to other problems (like this landslide).
Comparing the economic activity downstream of the Toutle to Tacoma is like comparing a JV baseball team to the Mariners. There is over a million people living in or near Rainier's lahar zones. Hell, Port of Seattle is even in the zone of a possible lahar. This area is the economic engine of the entire state.
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Slugman
It’s a Slugfest!
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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Slugman
It’s a Slugfest!
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Tue May 16, 2023 5:58 pm |
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Typical mean spirited nonsense from the snob. Billions? What a load of crap. Arrogant ignorance.
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altasnob
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Joined: 29 Aug 2007
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Location: Tacoma |
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altasnob
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Tue May 16, 2023 6:13 pm |
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Go read that Seattle Times article I posted that was written six years ago. I said "maybe billions." The article notes we've already spent over a billion rebuilding after the eruption.
The article also mentions exactly what I am saying (letting the lake drain naturally through the debris pile). The tunnel only has a 50 year lifespan and requires costly repairs. Initially, after the eruption, the view was to keep the mountain from eroding as much as possible. But today, that viewpoint is being challenged as untenable. Not to mention, the law that created Mt. St Helens National Monument says we are supposed to “to allow … geologic forces and ecological succession to continue substantially unimpeded." That's not what we are currently doing. We are trying to manipulate the way the entire North side of a Cascade volcano erodes.
I wish there was more press on this issue. Most Washingtonions are completely clueless when it comes to this issue.
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Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9513 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Tue May 16, 2023 7:10 pm |
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| altasnob wrote: | | I wish there was more press on this issue. Most Washingtonions are completely clueless when it comes to this issue. |
The entire population of Enumclaw lies in the likely lahar deposition zone that will occur the next time Mt Rainier "burps" -- The Osceola Lahar which occurred roughly 5600 years ago is one of the reasons there is a big flat plain in the Enumclaw area -- yet building permits are issued.
BTW: Plans are afoot for improving the drainage tunnel --- despite some lawsuits against it. It seems that federal judges assessment of the law is different from yours.
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Pyrites
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Joined: 16 Sep 2014
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Pyrites
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Tue May 16, 2023 7:20 pm |
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Longview is the flood plain of concern. Famously Weyerhaeuser imported a Dutch engineer to supervise the dike construction when they built the planned town.
Keep Calm and Carry On?
Heck No.
Stay Excited and Get Outside!
Keep Calm and Carry On?
Heck No.
Stay Excited and Get Outside!
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 11279 | TRs | Pics
Location: Don't move here |
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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Tue May 16, 2023 8:19 pm |
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| altasnob wrote: | | The Spirit Lake tunnel isn't there to protect from a future eruption. It is there to drain Spirit Lake today. Without it, Spirit Lake would drain down the North Fork of the Toutle River (where it has always drained). The problem with this is the area is so unstable with debris and dead logs, that a dam would form, the lake level would rise, and eventually, the dam would fail catastrophically. This would repeat until finally the natural channel was deep enough that dams would no longer form. This is all natural and would occur if man didn't manipulate this area. |
I am well aware of this. You were writing that people shouldn't live in the downstream lahar/flood zone. I replied that those places have been settled long before the danger was known. Don't need a lecture. I lived near tha volcano and even worked in the blast zone after the eruption. Wasn't there at the eruption but listened to a lot of stories by people who were there at that time.
Those grassy piles just north of the Longview area are actually made of the soil/ash that was dredged out of the Columbia and Cowlitz rivers after the eruption.
Longview is a shipping port, and then ships also head up the Columbia to Kalama and Portland.
If we weren't so afraid of getting sediment in the water, nevermind what happened in 1980, a load or two of logs could be dumped in and soil pushed over it and Bobs Yer Uncle, you have a temporary culvert!
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 11279 | TRs | Pics
Location: Don't move here |
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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Tue May 16, 2023 8:20 pm |
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| Pyrites wrote: | | Longview is the flood plain of concern. Famously Weyerhaeuser imported a Dutch engineer to supervise the dike construction when they built the planned town. |
So where are the windmills? The tulips are up the Cowlitz at Mossy Rock.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Sculpin
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Joined: 23 Apr 2015
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Sculpin
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Wed May 17, 2023 7:43 am |
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| altasnob wrote: | | the tunnel is the cause of this landslide |
Sure looks that way. 
Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir
Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir
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NationalParkAddict
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Joined: 06 May 2023
Posts: 10 | TRs | Pics
Location: Coeur d'alene |
Do yall know if there was any damage to the south side of Mount St. Helens? I sure hope not!
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 11279 | TRs | Pics
Location: Don't move here |
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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Wed May 17, 2023 9:01 am |
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| Sculpin wrote: | | altasnob wrote: | | the tunnel is the cause of this landslide |
Sure looks that way. |
You guys walked it since?
The area is full of unstable slopes. Add rain and snowmelt and we get slides. Go drive, if you can as it slides and washes out, the 26 road in the Monument. No tunnels cause that road's slides.
I'll wait for the experts to pronounce the cause. I am thinking it is the usual culprit, unstable soils and water.
Meanwhile, some history on a road nearby. https://www.columbian.com/news/2011/jan/19/landslide-closes-main-forest-road/
I've walked to the top of the Benham Cr. slope. There is a big crack above the road. The hillside will come down. Back in the day, there was a railroad where the road is. Locals say that each spring, after the snow was gone, a train would pull/push a load of rock up to the crossing and the rock would be dumped in to replace the material that washed out over the winter. Later on, the road was built and culverts put in. The road continued to sink and the joke was that there were many feet of asphalt in that crossing, along with a Volkswagen Bus. I think the bus was a bit of embellishment.
Why am I posting this bit of history? To show that unstable slopes exist, naturally all over SW Washington. I suspect tunnel or no tunnel, the road would have washed out.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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JPH
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Joined: 14 Feb 2008
Posts: 808 | TRs | Pics
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JPH
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Wed May 17, 2023 9:07 am |
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| altasnob wrote: | | adamschneider wrote: | | That map of the tunnel is wrong. The Spirit Lake tunnel discharges its water BELOW the road, near the bottom of that waterfall. |
That appears to be correct. But logic would still say dumping the contents of Spirit Lake into this creek bed WAS the likely cause of this landslide. If you dig out below a slope, it weakens the slope above. Water erodes and adding a lot of water to the creek bed erodes it at an unnatural rate.
I wonder if the State/Feds will own up to this fact that the tunnel is the cause of this landslide, and will likely cause future landslides at other places on this road. |
It looks like the landslide was way uphill of the bridge and the resulting mudflow did the damage:
I'm not seeing how this was related to the tunnel unless the tunnel is leaking and putting more water into the ground around the area of the landslide.
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jaysway
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Joined: 16 Jul 2020
Posts: 347 | TRs | Pics
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jaysway
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Wed May 17, 2023 9:29 am |
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The MSH/Loowit area had a significantly greater than normal snowpack this season that more closely resembled Oregon's stellar season compared to Washington's relatively average season. Conveniently, there is a SNOTEL station above Spirit Lake close to where the landslide occured.
Other nearby stations:
I do not have enough knowledge here to speculate on whether the tunnel had any effect on the landslide, but a higher than normal snowpack combined with a lot of recent melting surely is a recipe for landslides.
gb, Randito
gb, Randito |
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Anne Elk
BrontosaurusTheorist
Joined: 07 Sep 2018
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Anne Elk
BrontosaurusTheorist
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Wed May 17, 2023 12:35 pm |
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Speculations about probable causes aside, I kinda feel sorry for the folks whose cars are stuck on the Johnston Observatory side. Unless the various gov't entities come up with a temporary installation so those cars can be removed, they'll be stuck for a loooong time. At least no one was caught in the midst of it.
"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
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