Forum Index > Trail Talk > Landslide blocks access to Johnston Ridge at Mt St Helens
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neek
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neek
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PostSun May 21, 2023 1:49 pm 
treeswarper wrote:
A little story about the car situation
That poor fellow! Just got the car 3 weeks ago. From wsdot: "Travel along SR 504 remains open with multiple scenic viewpoints up to milepost 43 near the Science and Learning Center at Coldwater ... For safety, WSDOT and federal agencies strongly encourage people not to venture beyond the highway closure location due to the severity of the unstable hillside." Toutle to the Castle Lake Viewpoint is a very nice 30-mile (each way) bike ride with 3800' gain. Probably even better now with reduced traffic. You can venture further but you'll drop 900'.

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Chief Joseph
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PostSun May 21, 2023 3:12 pm 
Pyrites wrote:
Can car roof’s structurally support the normal snow pack?
Pretty sure no. So if the vehicles remain there through the winter they will likely be totaled, which would be a good thing for those with full coverage insurance.

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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jaysway
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PostSun May 21, 2023 9:09 pm 
Chief Joseph wrote:
Pretty sure no. So if the vehicles remain there through the winter they will likely be totaled, which would be a good thing for those with full coverage insurance.
I am curious: let's say that the cars remain there until next year and become totaled. Who pays to tow them out? The drivers? Their insurance companies? Or the USFS?

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Chief Joseph
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Chief Joseph
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PostSun May 21, 2023 9:30 pm 
Most vehicle comprehensive insurance also covers towing, but maybe with restrictions as far as distance of the tow and other factors.

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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Randito
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PostSun May 21, 2023 9:51 pm 
FWIW: IME When insurance companies "total" a vehicle, the original owner has the option to purchase the "totalled" vehicle back from the insurance company for some something like it's scrap value. If the original owner doesn't want to buy it back the insurance company sells it to "reconditioners" people that buy such vehicles, fix them up and resell them. The title of such vehicles are supposed to be designated "salvage" so the new buyers are aware.

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Kim Brown
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PostTue May 23, 2023 11:05 am 
They can be air craned out. Agency would likely pay for that to be done if the car owners pressed it; surely the agency and environmentalists should be concerned about leaking fluids. I recall the Downey Cr bridge was partially rebuilt just enough so stranded cars could be taken out, then dismantled (I mean the bridge, not the cars). A vehicle was stuck somewhere above the Whitechuck Road and remained there. I don't know if the owner didn't press it, or if they did and the USFS said Nope.

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert

Anne Elk
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Ski
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PostTue May 23, 2023 12:15 pm 
^ If they are newer vehicles (e.g., newer than 1995), odds are that all the seals and gaskets are still doing their job and if the vehicles remain stationary there's no reason for any fluids to leak. If there's a really hard, deep, freeze up there and one of the vehicles suffers a cracked cylinder block, cylinder head, or radiator, there's a possibility some ethylene glycol might leak out, but it breaks down after a couple weeks - not really a big deal. Engine blood, transmission fluid, differential fluid, power steering fluid: bad news environmentally, but odds of leakage if the vehicles remain stationary are minimal.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Kim Brown
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PostTue May 23, 2023 1:27 pm 
* wrote:
odds of leakage if the vehicles remain stationary are minimal.
But not zero. wink.gif Seems to me that doing nothing about stranded cars above a watershed on an unstable slope is a potential recipe for a lawsuit by environmentalists that you can bet are watching closely; which they are even if stranded cars weren't an issue. Auto insurance and post-vs-pre 1995 gaskets aside, the environmental liability is on the agency and it seems they would be better off paying for the removal of the cars and being done with that issue. Note the phrase: "seems to me." I'm not saying I'm right, so don't nobody sh## all over me.

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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Cyclopath
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Cyclopath
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PostTue May 23, 2023 1:32 pm 
It's amazing the way hikers sneer at environmental protection.

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Kim Brown
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PostTue May 23, 2023 1:52 pm 
altasnob wrote:
It would be declared wilderness but for all the manipulation man has to do to it with heavy machinery due to the people who enjoy their heavily subsidized life downstream.
Not sure what you mean by "people who enjoy their heavily subsidized life downstream," but in re: wilderness, that area still could be, if there was enough support for a proposal, but I don't know that it would be a smart move. as a Monument,, scientists and students can crawl all over it with their blinking gadgets, widgets, and doo- dads; roads, trails, and a learning center maintained. As wilderness - the unique geomorphology and landscape you're agog over (as we all should be, and maybe are) wouldn't be the world class study ground it is now. I wouldn't want it to be wilderness.

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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Randito
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PostTue May 23, 2023 1:54 pm 
Kim Brown wrote:
They can be air craned out.
The cost of a helicopter lift out is more than the cars are worth. There is also a non-zero risk of dropping the car while in transport or for a mishap where the helicopter and the car impact the earth and possibly start a forest fire. I would estimate that the amount of pollutants deposited on the Johnson Ridge parking lot during the period where access is shut off will be substantially less than what would be leaked while open with the normal flow of traffic. I've driven plenty of junkers in my life and the leak rate is much higher when the engine is running than when they are parked.

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Kim Brown
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PostTue May 23, 2023 2:15 pm 
Randito wrote:
Kim Brown wrote:
They can be air craned out.
The cost of a helicopter lift out is more than the cars are worth..
Doesn't matter. The owners probably won't be paying for it. It's cheaper than a lawsuit.
Randito wrote:
There is also a non-zero risk of dropping the car while in transport or for a mishap where the helicopter and the car impact the earth and possibly start a forest fire..
Of course that's a possibility. But doing nothing is also a risk.
Randito wrote:
I would estimate that the amount of pollutants deposited on the Johnson Ridge parking lot during the period where access is shut off will be substantially less than what would be leaked while open with the normal flow of traffic..
The concept of take regarding the Visitor Center and roads has likely been addressed when it was built. Runoff above the washout site from Visitor Center and road leading to it is known - adding to that by not repairing the washout site and/or removing cars is the issue, not existing, known runoff.
Randito wrote:
I've driven plenty of junkers in my life and the leak rate is much higher when the engine is running than when they are parked.
Some of the junkers I have driven leaked rainbow colors only when parked. As I said, regardless of post-or-re 1995 leak studies - add to that Randito's Junker Experience - if they do nothing, it seems it may be an issue in a lawsuit by environmentalists. Could be that they can go in & drain the cars or some fluids - maybe only the gas. Or, if any suitable agency vehicles are back there already, tow the cars farther away from the watershed; even to the Visitor Center, where they can hang out there and leak in peace. Just thinking out loud here. I come from a long line of family who like to think up scenarios. It's always interesting to see how these things play out.

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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Randito
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PostTue May 23, 2023 3:17 pm 
Kim Brown wrote:
Some of the junkers I have driven leaked rainbow colors only when parked
That is simply bad observation on your part. They were leaking as much or more while underway, but when each droplet is 100 feet apart it's harder to notice. But the dispersed droplets from cars driving along the access road and in parking lot and the hundreds of cars in the parking lot during a normal operating day is going to add up to substantial dispersed pollution. The half-dozen cars sitting in the parking lot for the next year is not reasonably going to be MORE than what normal usage would pollute.

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car68
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car68
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PostTue May 23, 2023 3:21 pm 
https://www.ktvq.com/news/positively-montana/helicopter-rescues-stranded-cars-for-east-rosebud-residents
It's been done before. UH-60 can sling load 8-9000 lbs.

I'm the guy 911 calls.

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Chief Joseph
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PostTue May 23, 2023 4:56 pm 
The concern about the minimal chance of a vehicle leaking fluids enough to cause an environmental concern is simply hyperbole. Maybe if the vehicles remain there through the winter, the owners should snowshoe in and dance on the car in order to make sure that it's totaled. clown.gif

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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