Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > Can we have a REALISTIC discussion about what to do with all the CARS? 08/08/23
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Cyclopath
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PostFri Sep 01, 2023 9:27 am 
thunderhead wrote:
Yellowstone has 5 major entrances about 50,000 parking spaces tons of surface area
Travel thousands of miles to see the world's largest parking lot!

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trestle
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PostFri Sep 01, 2023 10:38 am 
If we're going to subsidize e-bikes then we should subsidize ALL bicycle purchases. The battery industry is not anyone's friend and I simply cannot support further subsidization for extractive industries that stifle true innovation. Second, Clallam County Transit has seen so much success with their Hurricane Ridge shuttle they are considering running one to the Hoh Visitor Center. https://www.peninsuladailynews.com/news/clallam-transit-considers-service-to-hoh-rain-forest/ I'm noticing at least one or two companies offering shuttle services from the ferries to the mountain bike parks on the Peninsula and at least one new company offering guide/transit options. Perhaps in the future someone will start a transit service that can haul up to a certain weight and bulk.

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neek
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PostFri Sep 01, 2023 11:11 am 
trestle wrote:
If we're going to subsidize e-bikes then we should subsidize ALL bicycle purchases.
Yes! We should fund bikes (electric or otherwise) and bike infrastructure for all rather than EVs (and maybe ebikes) for some. Not to mention stopping the big oil subsidies ($20B/year in the US).

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treeswarper
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PostFri Sep 01, 2023 11:29 am 
From what I've read on the WDOT and Seattle Times sites, ebikes have been chosen because they are more likely to be used by regular people. One can adjust the power on the bikes so one doesn't show up to work all sweaty, one can go up hills with less effort, etc. As for the latest fad of the anti-electric argument--the children working in the mines, well, would those children starve if they weren't working? It's a disgusting world out there. There would be some other place for child labor if not the mining.

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Cyclopath
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PostFri Sep 01, 2023 12:04 pm 
trestle wrote:
If we're going to subsidize e-bikes then we should subsidize ALL bicycle purchases. The battery industry is not anyone's friend and I simply cannot support further subsidization for extractive industries that stifle true innovation.
up.gif

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Cyclopath
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PostFri Sep 01, 2023 12:06 pm 
neek wrote:
Not to mention stopping the big oil subsidies ($20B/year in the US).
$13 million per minute, globally. We could do a lot of good with that money instead of destroying the planet and driving so many species to extinction.

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thunderhead
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PostSat Sep 02, 2023 4:00 pm 
Subsidising nuclear power and electric cars would be an obviously superior way to spend that money but thats still going to fill our trailheads with evs. As the population grows trailhead parking needs to expand.

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Cyclopath
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PostSun Sep 03, 2023 9:18 am 
thunderhead wrote:
thats still going to fill our trailheads with evs.
That's not an important problem, but the obvious solution is autonomous self driving electric cars that will go shuttle someone else around while you hike and come for you when you're done. Individual ownership of cars is an especially crappy "golden" shackle.

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thunderhead
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PostSun Sep 03, 2023 7:20 pm 
Its pretty inefficient... even for evs... to make empty long trips. And since the majority of hikers go out in the morning and come back in the afternoon the times just dont stack up to load up vehicles both ways. Maybe it works at the closer trailheads but not out further or for more comitting hikes. A fully automatic car could certainly go park itself in a nearby parking lot, relieving parking at peak spots a little but that sort of tech is 10 years off or so i think. Ev is much more mature than fsd. I dont think the shared autonomous model is going to work. People like the convenience of their ride always being there, having the same vehicle each time. And the use costs are nearly the same. Its not like the shared plan is going to magically make vehicles last longer or cost less to fix. Thats a sector i'd never invest in, except perhaps in city cores.

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treeswarper
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PostMon Sep 04, 2023 2:19 pm 
Parking lots are deforestation. Clearcuts that are not reforested.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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PostTue Sep 05, 2023 7:21 am 
^ they are also covered with impermeable asphalt, which inevitably is the cause of run-off issues that cause erosion, as clearly demonstrated at the Vashon Island viewpoint parking lot at Pt. Defiance Park, which has been the cause of serious bank erosion at the northwest corner of the parking lot. (Which makes me wonder where they channeled all the water at Ruby Beach, where the Pacific Ocean is doing its best to eat away the bluffs along the coast.)

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slabbyd
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PostTue Sep 05, 2023 7:45 am 
Having just come back from the Dolomites my experience would be that they haven't solved the car issue either. High mountain passes looked similar to popular trailheads here with long lines of cars parked along the shoulders in either direction. Popular TH roads had the same sort of closures/1-in-1-out systems you see here. That said public transportation was infinitely better than what we have we took buses to and from the THs we visited. One thing they do have figured out is how to move people in and out of the high country using lifts verses high altitude parking lots. And to then concentrate impact via the development of refugios. Seems like Rainer could be ideally suited for Euro style development. Shuttle buses to Longmire and a tram to Paradise. Reduced road maintenance costs (don't even plow it in winter) would pay for itself. But we're stuck in our ways. Local businesses would complain that having to get out of your car would reduce visitor-ship. One small environmental group would jam everything up with a lawsuit. Still a nice thought. Just looked at a topo map. Cougar Rock campground to Paradise is 2.5 miles and 2300'. That's well within reasonable parameters for lifts installed routinely by ski areas. Sea-to-Sky gondola (3000' in 1.5 miles) cost 7.6 million in 2017. Googling carrying capacity 2500 people/hr is an average number with ranges of 1,000-5,000.

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Randito
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PostTue Sep 05, 2023 8:08 am 
slabbyd wrote:
Cougar Rock campground to Paradise is 2.5 miles and 2300'. That's well within reasonable parameters for lifts installed routinely by ski areas.
The ski area development path was considered in the '60s, with something similar to what has been developed on Mt Hood proposed. But the NPS decided to not go that way even shut down the rope tow based ski area at Paradise in the mid 60s. The company that operated the rope tows and had proposed installation of chairlift then developed the Crystal Mtn ski area. As a practical matter at this point expanding visitation at Paradise and Sunrise without paving over more meadows for parking would be to build expanded parking at lower elevation, perhaps just outside the park and run a bus service during peak summer visitation. This way the parking lot would not be overflowing, but the trails would be more crowded. As a skier , I would certainly enjoy a reliably open daily tram running from lower down up to Paradise instead of currently unreliable weekend only road access to Paradise. But I don't see that happening without the Park being sold to Disney Corp. No thanks.

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Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > Can we have a REALISTIC discussion about what to do with all the CARS? 08/08/23
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