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Chief Joseph
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PostFri Nov 24, 2023 9:48 am 
At this rate the M's will someday be the ONLY remaining team that has not won a World Series. At this time they are the only team that has not even been to a World Series. What a history of poor leadership, had the somehow found a way to keep Randy Johnson.... "The Dodgers have represented the NL the most in the World Series with 21 appearances. The Seattle Mariners are the only MLB franchise that has never appeared in a World Series; the Milwaukee Brewers, San Diego Padres, Tampa Bay Rays, and Colorado Rockies have all played in the Series but have never won it.". I know fans won't do it, but the team should be boycotted until they show a commitment to winning, not simply existing in order to turn a profit. Pathetic.....and yet I can't even watch them play on TV unless I pay an additional fee...yea sure, not worth any amount of $ at this time.

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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Slugman
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PostSat Nov 25, 2023 9:47 pm 
Eugenio Suarez hit 232, 22 home runs, and led the American league in striking out. Good riddance! News flash: the Mariners best players are too young to be the core of a top level club. And they aren’t growing up over one season. The Mariners would need two or three Shohei Ohtanis to compete for a title right now. Expect at least two more years of rebuilding, maybe more.

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Chief Joseph
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PostSat Nov 25, 2023 10:53 pm 
They might as well be a farm team.

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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PostSun Nov 26, 2023 8:52 am 
Slugman wrote:
Expect at least two more years of rebuilding, maybe more.
Rebuilding is when you trade your high-salary veterans for young prospects. What they are doing does not look anything like a rebuild. What Dipoto does seem to be "rebuilding" is a team that resembles the ones he fielded when he was GM of the Angels. (Those teams were terrible!) When he came to the Mariners, there was a narrative about that. I presume it came from Dipoto himself. In the narrative, the ownership group in Anaheim, Arte Moreno and his flunkies, were having too much influence on the roster, and that blocked Dipoto from doing what he thought would work best. Once he really got a chance, according to this narrative, his true talent and skills would emerge. My oh my, as Dave Niehaus used to say. Look what we have now. We have a couple of superstars on long term contract - Julio and Castillo instead of Trout and Ohtani - and a revolving door of position players struggling to achieve mediocrity around them. There is a solid core of seven starting pitchers as of today (not something the Angels ever had), but that means that a couple of them will likely be traded for bats, leaving a thin rotation. Batting improvements this offseason are laser-focused on On-Base Percentage (OBP) because that was the biggest weakness last year. While that may seem like a reasonable approach, fix your worst problem, it always ends up as whack-a-mole. This is because if the only tool in your drawer is a trade, you end up creating another weakness on your team when you fix last year's weakness. More than anything, this trades-to-whack-moles is the quintessential Dipoto approach. You might notice that they are always targeting specific skills at specific positions. A lot of those deals don't work so well, so the result is a mediocre major league team of aces and spaces, and a farm system gutted by rent-a-player deals. The Mariners farm system is currently rated 19th out of 30 in terms of player projections, but that includes Woo and Hancock. One or both will likely be traded, leaving the farm system ranked around 25th. The champion Rangers farm system is currently ranked sixth and they will go out this winter and build a rotation from free agents. The Orioles won 101 games last year with very young players and their farm system is still ranked in the top 5. Tampa Bay is a third team that has both a better major league roster and a far better farm system. Not only that, they have a lower payroll. Get out the broom, that's a sweep! frown.gif They take the opposite approach to Dipoto in most ways. They trade for potential, without much regard for what position the player is used to or how many home runs they hit in the minors.

Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir
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FiveNines
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PostSun Nov 26, 2023 10:37 pm 
Organization has been pretty clear about who they are for at least a few years now. Contempt. In action, and attitude. How they treat their players, their employees, their television partners and their fans. Curious if I'll turn on the radio next spring? They make it feel so dirty, but old habits and all that. If you were in the Bellevue Rotary, would you pay this guy for a wall advertisement or a box rental? starts around 2:45
I feel sad for Raleigh, Gilbert, Kirby throwing away the prime of their careers on this garbage team for minimum wage while the organization earned a league leading $82,000,000 profit in 2022. So many fun and interesting young players coming together at same time should have been special. Just add a little fuel to the oven. At least JP and Julio got the life changing money. Trade Kelenic to AZ too. Would be fun to see him blow up or grow up in a new environment. Plus Geno, Marte, Kelenic, Corbin Carrol w/Sewald closing is a team I could enjoy listening to on the radio regardless of outcome.

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Sore Feet
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PostMon Nov 27, 2023 11:00 am 
Slugman wrote:
the Mariners best players are too young to be the core of a top level club
Raleigh just turned 27, Crawford will be 29 going into next season, Gilbert will be 27, Kirby will be 26. These guys are right in their prime, they're not even remotely too young. The only of our core players who might qualify as "too young to be the core" are Julio and Kelenic, and that's still a bad argument in Julio's case since he's signed long terms and will be the core going forward no matter what, and the jury is still out on whether Kelenic will stick. These guys are exactly what need to be built around, and that's exactly what Texas did two seasons ago when they spent to get Simien and Seager.

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Stefan
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PostMon Nov 27, 2023 1:11 pm 
Chief Joseph wrote:
They might as well be a farm team.
That has been the quote for the last 20 years! I would like to know what the financials looks for the Mariners compared to the other MLB teams....Because if they keep making a "decent" profit....why screw it up?

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Chief Joseph
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PostMon Nov 27, 2023 2:09 pm 
Sore Feet wrote:
what Texas did two seasons ago when they spent....
Yea, that is not going to happen here, they are focused on turning a profit and being just competitive enough to keep the fans interested, Many of the people that attend M's games are not what I would call "True Fans"...it is more of a social event for them. Some owners, like old George Steinbrenner will spend as much money as it takes to produce a winner, for him 2nd place was the first loser. With MLB not having a salary cap, there is a big advantage in having owners with deep pockets and/or not afraid to spend as much as it takes to win.

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.

Pyrites
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Pyrites
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PostMon Nov 27, 2023 3:26 pm 
If you want a chance to be a fan of a World Series team in this lifetime you have two choices. Hope for new owners. Pick another team.

Keep Calm and Carry On? Heck No. Stay Excited and Get Outside!

Chief Joseph
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Sore Feet
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PostMon Nov 27, 2023 8:50 pm 
Chief Joseph wrote:
Yea, that is not going to happen here, they are focused on turning a profit and being just competitive enough to keep the fans interested, Many of the people that attend M's games are not what I would call "True Fans"...it is more of a social event for them.
Not disagreeing with this, but they have in fact given out big contracts recently that indicates they are willing to spend - Ray 5 / $115M, Castillo 5 / $108M with a vesting 6th year, J-Rod 12 / $209M with all sorts of bonkers escalators that could bring it up to $400-something million, Crawford 5 / $51M. On the surface yeah it doesn't look like they're willing to spend the premium money to get the top shelf free agents to come here, but it's a two way street - players have to want to come here, and it's not always just a matter of offering the biggest paycheck. The FO has certainly indicated that they're not willing to spend THAT FAR above the market rate to entice players who would otherwise not want to come to Seattle, and there is at least some sound reasoning in that stance, especially when we'll have to dish out big contracts to Gilbert, Kirby, and Raleigh in the next four years if we want to keep them.

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Chief Joseph
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Slugman
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PostWed Nov 29, 2023 6:19 pm 
Funny how you mention only the age of players with little or no major league experience. Last year the four starters aside from Castillo had a total of three years starting experience total between all four. Surprise: they got tuckered out at the end of the year. And the bullpen? Top two pitchers (with Sewald gone) are practically babies. Too young to be a top contender. Someone can also decide that “rebuilding” means whatever they say it does, but it’s nonsense. The team is rebuilding, anyone who says not literally knows nothing. Paul Sewald for three young players, proof right there that you know zilch. The problem is that most Mariners “fans” are crybabies after so many years of frustration.

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PostThu Nov 30, 2023 8:41 am 
Slugman wrote:
“rebuilding” means whatever they say it does
As concepts go, it's a very clean one, actually. In a rebuild, we can easily name the players who would be gone this offseason just by looking at their age. The list would begin with Luis Castillo, assuming he would waive his no-trade clause to escape the pending dumpster fire. Both Ray and Gonzales would be traded for roster flotsam. JP will be 29 when the season begins so he would also be traded. Coming off his best year he would return good prospects. Raleigh and Gilbert would both be shopped, since they are marginal at ages 27 and 26. But don't worry, none of these players will be traded for young prospects. Dipoto has been very clear from day one that after a build-up, the Mariners would shift to cruise control and avoid the boom-and-bust cycles of the past. Somewhat to my surprise, they did indeed get good right when he said they would, and they show no indications of going for a "boom," which would involve multiple pricey free agents. Dipoto discourages the fans from dreaming about free agents, but I do think they might make one FA acquisition to get a primary DH. I predict JD Martinez for about $15M. The most likely trade partner is the Orioles. I'm seeing something like Bryce Miller for Anthony Santander and a prospect. Ryan Mountcastle is another possible trade target, in which case they would not sign Martinez.

Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir
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Sore Feet
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PostThu Nov 30, 2023 10:40 am 
Slugman wrote:
Funny how you mention only the age of players with little or no major league experience. Last year the four starters aside from Castillo had a total of three years starting experience total between all four. Surprise: they got tuckered out at the end of the year. And the bullpen? Top two pitchers (with Sewald gone) are practically babies. Too young to be a top contender.
Miller and Woo got tired, yeah. But they were essentially forced into the rotation because Ray and Marco went down with long term injuries. If Hancock hadn't gotten hurt right after being called up, he would have taken over a lot of the load at the end of the year that was forced on Woo. Gilbert and Kirby though were just fine. Gilbert threw 185 innings in 2022, and 190 in 2023. He's stretched out and perfectly capable of going a full season. Kirby, despite going from 130 innings in 2022 to 190 innings in 2023 ended up coming in 8th place in the AL Cy Young voting, and was the team's best pitcher last year by far. And guess what? He's only 6 months older than Bryce Miller. Whether or not they're "babies" has nothing to do with it.
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The team is rebuilding, anyone who says not literally knows nothing. Paul Sewald for three young players, proof right there that you know zilch.
The team has been rebuilding, yes. The rebuild started in 2019. At this point the core of the team has been rebuilt. They now need to supplement it with established talent where there are gaps in need. Trading Sewald was about dealing from a position of strength to try and plug some of those gaps, not about kicking the rebuild into a higher gear. If they were really intent on rebuilding again, we would see Gilbert, Kirby, Castillo, France, Crawford, Munoz, and probably Raleigh all shipped out, because they could net the team an absolute haul of prospects that would almost certainly give the M's the best farm system in baseball. But they're not gonna do that, because they're not at that point in the rebuild. If things go sideways in the next couple of seasons however, that may change.

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Chief Joseph
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PostThu Nov 30, 2023 11:13 am 
You guys are funny, the M's have been "rebuilding" for at least a decade and will likely continue to do so. It is possible to produce a winner at times with a low payroll, see Tampa Bay, Minnesota, etc....but there is little margin of error and the Owner and the GM actually have to want to win, not just show a profit.

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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PostThu Nov 30, 2023 11:51 am 
Sore Feet wrote:
Trading Sewald was about dealing from a position of strength to try and plug some of those gaps, not about kicking the rebuild into a higher gear.
Exactly. Josh Rojas was immediately fielded as the starting second baseman, which was a desperate need after Kolten Wong washed out. (There is a point where baseball teams will react to embarrassment, and second base was embarrassing.) Dominic Canzone, who has been a classic "Quad-A" player, filled in as a lefty outfield depth piece. Ryan Bliss is indeed a prospect but is projected to be the starting second baseman in 2025. Meanwhile, Sewald was an odd duck, a closer without gas. The bullpen is the M's superpower. They send the kids to Gas Camp, they emerge dominant, they blow away opponents for a while, and then they get traded. Once traded they generally fall off, see Penn Murfee and Trevor Gott. This is the only aspect of the Dipoto era that has actually worked!

Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir
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