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zimmertr
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zimmertr
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PostMon Jan 08, 2024 9:06 pm 
I'll still happily take an exit row seat lol. Probably won't even shy away from Max. This was an installation fluke that could have happened to any plugged airplane body regardless of model.

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Chief Joseph
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PostMon Jan 08, 2024 9:17 pm 
O' I get that, but I doubt that many of the general public will. Fear is rampant...but you are not paranoid if something or someone is out to get ya! paranoid.gif

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.

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treeswarper
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PostMon Jan 08, 2024 9:22 pm 
A headrest was found.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Bowregard
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PostMon Jan 08, 2024 9:52 pm 
zimmertr wrote:
This was an installation fluke that could have happened to any plugged airplane body regardless of model.
Sorry but no - While this is likely an installation "issue" it is not a "fluke". For years the airframe manufacturers have been focused on "building quality in" to their products because they can't "inspect quality in". Which is just spin for "I don't want to spend $$ on inspections" which don't build planes. Often this is conveyed with "I would rather spend the $$ to "build in" the quality than waste $$ in Quality Control. But when it comes right down to it they don't want to spend a $ more than they have to. All of this is well and good so long as the training and discipline is in place to ensure the planes are designed and built properly. But as with most things in this world the pendulum swings back and forth because the people who learned lessons the hard way move on and are replaced by some others who are anxious to make a name for themselves and willing to put short term profits above long term reputations. I better shut up before I start talking outsourcing, reducing QA budgets, etc. I am not trying to scare anybody. The truth is you are far safer in a commercial airliner than in an automobile. It is just hard to know how far we have come in aircraft safety and watch what has happened over the past decade.

fourteen410  Anne Elk
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zimmertr
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zimmertr
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PostMon Jan 08, 2024 10:38 pm 
Bowregard wrote:
it is not a "fluke"
https://aviation-safety.net/database/types/Boeing-737-series/statistics wrote:
Hull-losses: 234 Hull-loss accidents: 215 with a total of 4928 fatalities Criminal occurences (hull-losses, excl. hijackings): 8 with a total of 525 fatalities Hijackings: 115 with a total of 326 fatalities Survival rate: 35.8% of all occupants survived fatal accidents
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737 wrote:
In 2013, the global 737 fleet had completed more than 184 million flights over 264 million block hours since its entry into service.
I recognize these statistics represent the full lifetime of 737, just not the Max. But I gave up looking for those statistics because I realized I didn't care as they'll actually probably be even more favorable. This is the fourth Max hull loss, correct? Sounds like a fluke to me. Though in writing this I did learn that the word "fluke" is usually reserved for lucky accidents. In this case, perhaps a mishap or accident is a more appropriate word choice then. Either way, not worried.

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FiveNines
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PostMon Jan 08, 2024 10:57 pm 
737 Max is not a 737. Max did not take maiden flight until 2016. Not delivered to any customers until 2017. The 737 Max has been grounded for over 20 months of its ~6.5 year service time. Boeing has already paid more than $2,500,000,000 in settlements against claims of fraud and negligence in the flight certification and manufacture of the 737 Max. Maybe you have a compelling argument? But why do you support it and cite statistics from a different model plane, and from three years before 737 Max ever flew? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_MAX eta I was responding to zimmertr post before they edited to acknowledge there is a difference between 737 and 737 Max.

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Bowregard
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PostMon Jan 08, 2024 11:03 pm 
Hi zimmertr, I took "fluke" to mean "unlucky chance" more than simply unusual. As you stated flying is statistically quite safe. No argument there. I just struggle with what is may be an installation issue being "unlucky" but I get your point.

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Malachai Constant
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PostMon Jan 08, 2024 11:13 pm 
The ironic thing is that they often charge more for those seats as they have more legroom. huh.gif

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn

Chief Joseph
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zimmertr
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zimmertr
TJ Zimmerman
PostMon Jan 08, 2024 11:39 pm 
FiveNines wrote:
737 Max is not a 737
Not exactly, but they have a lot in common. They have different engines and wingspans and software but they're both narrow body jets that stem from the same design.
FiveNines wrote:
But why do you support it and cite statistics from a different model plane, and from three years before 737 Max ever flew?
The aviation safety data source I shared is inclusive of the Max jets. See the "Worst Accidents" cited at the bottom. I didn't find specific flight quantities for the Max before stopping but did presume the total flights listed in the Wiki article were also inclusive given it includes information on the Max. As you saw in my edit, though, it is likely Max odds fare better given there have only been four hull incidents thus far.
FiveNines wrote:
I was responding to zimmertr post before they edited to acknowledge there is a difference between 737 and 737 Max
Sorry about that, I have a terrible habit of writing a draft and then sending it. Then reading it and realizing I want to change something. Then doing it 10 more times before finishing. ADHD maybe? I dunno. I do it all the time. I'm even doing it again right now.
Bowregard wrote:
I took "fluke" to mean "unlucky chance"
In a way I did mean this too. Given that this jet was newly manufactured and existing Max jets have not demonstrated this to be a consistent problem. In any regard, I don't intend to come off an expert or informed person. I was just lazy-Googling. I just wanted to add that, as a layman, I'm not really worried at all about flying on a Max and would eagerly continue to take an exit row seat with additional leg room on one. I am, of course, concerned with late stage capitalism and MBAs running an atrophying company propped up "Weekend at Bernie's" style by the DoD and how that negatively impacts safety, innovation, and fiscal efficiency, however.

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flatsqwerl
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PostTue Jan 09, 2024 7:15 am 

grannyhiker, treeswarper  moonspots, seawallrunner, fourteen410, Chief Joseph, Kascadia
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Schroder
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PostTue Jan 09, 2024 11:44 am 

grannyhiker, Chief Joseph
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Chief Joseph
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Chief Joseph
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PostTue Jan 09, 2024 11:48 am 
zimmertr wrote:
I just wanted to add that, as a layman, I'm not really worried at all about flying on a Max and would eagerly continue to take an exit row seat with additional leg room on one.
That makes ONE of you. wink.gif

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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grannyhiker
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PostTue Jan 09, 2024 1:40 pm 
As a sidelight, some NTSB members will visit the physics class of Bob Sauer, the teacher in whose back yard the door plug landed. Evidently Bob was quite the star at school yesterday! (This last per the NTSB news conference yesterday evening.) https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/washington-county/ntsb-officials-visit-classroom-bob-sauer-door-plug/283-2777e780-8f79-45f6-96d9-b010a31e4b63

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view.--E.Abbey
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jinx'sboy
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PostTue Jan 09, 2024 2:56 pm 
An old friend - who did a couple decades in QA/QC on the rocketry side of things at Lockheed-Martin - explains it this way…. “Boeing f’ed up at what we used to call Quality-101. The manufacturing/production people always HATED seeing me standing around out on their shop floor in my little Buster Brown suit keeping my hands clean witnessing tork operations. My presence slowed things down & cost the company money, they said, cos all I did was watch while the Real Workin' Men did useful work. I wasn't needed and I was In The Way. They useta express that opinion frequently while I hadda stand there. Looks like those same noisy f***ers got their way at Boeing and they fired their inspectors to save $.”

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Tom
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PostTue Jan 09, 2024 4:40 pm 
I don't know, I discount anything from any self-proclaimed authority that uses that vernacular. I used to work at GE where there was a heavy emphasis on quality. That certainly made sense for manufacturing, but it was complete nonsense when applied to other industries like insurance. A lot of the quality gurus that showed up to push their religion in the industry I worked were cult like head cases. I think this particular incident is just bad luck and not necessarily anything to do with the 737 Max. I wouldn't have any issues flying one of those planes, the statistics speak for themselves, air travel is pretty darn safe. From what I've heard, the warning sensors went off several times before the door actually blew. This one seems to be more on Alaska for not taking the warnings seriously enough and keeping the plane in service.

day_hike_mike, zimmertr, Schroder, Chief Joseph
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