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Schroder
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PostMon Jan 15, 2024 9:09 am 
lanzscape wrote:
And as for insurance being available for those with Garmin for only $30 a year, sounds like a great option, but why would someone who only hikes in Washington pay even that small sum if rescues in Washington are "free?"
They probably shouldn't but how many people that subscribe to the services only hike in one state? The coverage from Garmin reads:
Quote:
Search and Rescue Benefit If a Covered Person becomes injured, lost, disoriented or is reported missing during a Hazard Insured Against shown in the Schedule of Benefits, We will pay the expenses incurred for one Search and Rescue. This Benefit is subject to the Benefit Maximum shown in the Schedule of Benefits. This Benefit can only be activated when someone makes a formal report of the Covered Person’s need for Search and Rescue to (Garmin IERCC) who can activate a Search and Rescue, utilizing a supported IERCC device. Enough specific and credible details of how, when, where the Covered Person might be located must be provided so that an official and organized Search and Rescue can be activated. In the event (Garmin IERCC) did not coordinate the rescue, exceptions will be reviewed, for payments to be made. Itemized receipts of services and costs from the authorities who seek payment must be provided. It is understood and agreed that expenses provided under this rider, will be excess of all other sources of payments from personal health/medical coverages, that are in effective at time of Service were requested. “Search and Rescue” means those reasonable costs incurred for fuel, operating costs, repair and rental of: • motor vehicles; • aircraft or helicopters; • hovercraft; • Unmanned Aerial Systems when operated according to FAA guidelines and regulations; • snowmobiles; • horses; • dogs; • generators; and any other equipment necessary or deemed appropriate by the authorities for activities to find, recover, or rescue the Covered Person while performed by individuals who have been appointed or requested by a governmental authority.
I suppose Garmin takes a cut for organizing the SAR effort but none of those costs would be billed in the State of Washington. I personally carry coverage with Life Flight Network that takes care of helo costs, for example, from my home to the hospital. When I travelled internationally for work, which was in remote areas of the world, I always carried evacuation (and ransom) insurance which was fairly inexpensive for what it covered.

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RumiDude
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PostMon Jan 15, 2024 10:57 am 
lanzscape wrote:
All I suggested is that there are logical reasons for why people should pay at least some portion of the rescue costs THEY incur, as people generally do for nearly all costs THEY incur.
Well, there are also logical reasons to make the rescue effort cost free to the rescued. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."

Cyclopath, dave allyn
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Randito
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PostMon Jan 15, 2024 11:42 am 
MangyMarmot wrote:
I bet Albania has a much, much smaller ration of lawyers to citizens.
In my direct experience with injury incidents -- it is the insurance companies that drive the legal antics. e.g. Someone I know was injured while skiing when hit by another snow slider. The injured person's health insurance company pursued a settlement against the liability portion of the homeowners policy of the other snow slider. So much legal actions are driven by one insurance company trying to get another insurance company to pay the bill.

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timberghost
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PostMon Jan 15, 2024 11:43 am 
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sarbar
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PostTue Jan 16, 2024 9:05 am 
Sometimes you are nothing more than an example of what not to do. And that's it. Every single one of us, at some point, made a stupid decision where to adventure - but....we got lucky and didn't need help. Maybe you were closer in to home, or you turned around earlier. Or you had youth on your side. The person involved probably feels pretty bad over it. So...how does yelling at them improve anything? It just makes YOU feel better and more superior.

https://trailcooking.com/ Eat well on the trail.

graywolf, bullfrog, snowmonkey, Tom, Alpine Pedestrian  idoru  Ski
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lanzscape
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PostTue Jan 16, 2024 5:44 pm 
I am not sure to whom sarbar's post was directed, but I certainly did not "yell" at anyone. Maybe I missed the "yelling" post. I only saw a couple posts questioning the wisdom of the rescuee's trip, which I interpreted as giving an opinion rather than yelling. As for me, I expressly indicated that I would not speculate on how careful or careless this particular rescuee was. I also indicated that I saw problems with using "fault" as a factor in determining whether to charge for a rescue. I was just trying to engage in an academic analysis of the pros and cons of making rescues totally free -- whether doing so actually promotes risk taking, carless planning, rescues that are not actually needed, etc. And in response to Rumi, I also never said there were no logical reasons in favor of free rescues. I recognize that there are arguments both ways. In fact, in my initial post, I expressly recognized that substantial rescues costs could discourage someone from calling for a rescue. I just don't believe that requiring the rescuee(s) to pay a portion of the rescue (if uninsured) would actually cause this, nor do I think this is the only factor to be considered. The fact that rescue insurance seems to be available further supports my opinion that there are alternatives that may promote more responsible and safer practices at lower cost to those who do not hike at all. But I further admit that I do not live in Washington, so I have no direct skin in the game at all.

zimmertr
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DadFly
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PostTue Jan 16, 2024 6:32 pm 
It would take days to recount all the stupid things I have seen and done in the backcountry. If not for, (insert excuse), we all certainly would have died many times over. So being in no position to judge, what I can say is the person having had the most fun wins! Wouldn't it be tragic if our litigious society scared people away from the backcountry?

"May you live in interesting times"

Cyclopath, idoru
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Anne Elk
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PostTue Jan 16, 2024 7:05 pm 
DadFly wrote:
Wouldn't it be tragic if our litigious society scared people away from the backcountry?
Maybe, but the recurrence of this topic in our forums motivates me to periodically repeat my citation of the opinion of a SAR guy from Montana, for those who missed it the first time: No easy fix for the Beartooth Panic The author bemoans the increasing demand on SAR resources, and while he mentions the fact that some states were considering charging for rescues, he doesn't advocate for it. But he zeroes in on a societal problem, which has proliferated because of the "safety factor" of cellphones and the like:
Tom Vines wrote:
There seems to be an increasing failure in our culture's value system whereby self indulgence is the norm, while self discipline and personal courage are discarded as relics of the past.
So, to your point and Mr. Vines', if we didn't have these high tech tools to take along, the risks and objective dangers of the backcountry might give more of the unprepared pause before venturing out, not the fear of litigation. clown.gif

"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
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CarriesNineFires
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PostTue Jan 16, 2024 8:00 pm 
A dumbed-down view of the topic and a departure from the details of appropriate rescue rules: There are so many people getting out into the mountains and there are so many skill levels, comfort levels, intentions and judgment calls made in so many situations. It's self-centered to Monday morning quarterback about any given rescue situation. In the case of this and numerous other threads on this site, we never know the story and the reactions are personal and accordingly highly opinionated. That makes for a lively conversation but I believe, even as a generally misanthropic and darkly critical observer of humanity's unimpressive baseline, that we as a people are best represented as a caring and concerned bunch and we'll step up when that's needed. To excoriate the person in need, especially without knowing the facts, is to acknowledge that rules and laws are more important than the simple extending of a helping hand. Why look for reasons to punish when we have every reason to celebrate the saving of a life?

Brucester, Waterman, InFlight, Cyclopath, dave allyn, bccarlso, zimmertr  idoru
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CarriesNineFires
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PostTue Jan 16, 2024 8:18 pm 
I will never lament the exertions of the search and rescue teams in these incidents, because they signed up for just that. They are heroes and I am grateful for their work. Sometimes the rescue is not actually needed but those volunteers respond to the call and they bring all of their expertise and passion to the mission. They signed up for this and they don't f### around: they show up in droves and they do everything they can do to effect a positive outcome. I've seen it first hand. It's impressive. Don't forget that there are a lot of people who give their time and safety to helping the people who sometimes seem to be oblivious to the fact that sh## can go suddenly wrong. Or the ones who were totally prepared but it all went suddenly wrong.

ChinookPass
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Chief Joseph
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PostTue Jan 16, 2024 8:43 pm 
Hutch wrote:
I know all outdoors stuff is a calculated risk and don't think "let people die for their mistakes" is a good rule for society but also who in their right mind tries this hike in January with this weather forecast?
This case is no where near as crazy a Anatoli Boukreev's solo attempt of Annapurna in winter, RIP.

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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schifferj
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PostFri Jan 19, 2024 8:03 pm 
Chief Joseph wrote:
This case is no where near as crazy a Anatoli Boukreev's solo attempt of Annapurna in winter, RIP.
Boukreev was not solo climbing on Annappurna. Three weeks after receiving the David A. Sowles Memorial Award, Boukreev began his attempt to climb the south face of Annapurna I (8,091 m or 26,545 ft) along with Simone Moro, an accomplished Italian mountaineer. They were accompanied by Dimitri Sobolev, a cinematographer from Kazakhstan who was documenting the attempt. On December 25 around noon, Boukreev and Moro were fixing ropes in a couloir at around the 5,700 m (18,700 ft) level. Suddenly, an enormous cornice broke loose from the heights of Annapurna's Western Wall and rumbled down the 800 m (2,600 ft) long couloir. The avalanche knocked Moro down the mountain where he landed just above their tent at Camp I 5,200 m (17,100 ft). Fortuitously, Moro had somehow stayed near the top of the avalanche debris and managed to dig himself out after a few minutes. Unable to see or hear any signs of Boukreev or Sobolev (whom Moro had witnessed disappearing beneath "car-sized blocks of ice"), Moro descended to Annapurna base camp where he was flown by helicopter back to Kathmandu for surgery on his hands, which had been ripped down to the tendons during the fall.

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Ski
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PostFri Jan 19, 2024 10:36 pm 
okay well I'm late to the party but I have to agree with sarbar because I know for sure I've done some really dumb-ass stuff and I wonder to this day how I managed to survive my own idiocy of course, if you want to insure this never happens again, you could always require that the subject have their feet amputated, thereby preventing them from hiking again. yeah... that'll work. up.gif

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Chief Joseph
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PostFri Jan 19, 2024 10:58 pm 
schifferj wrote:
Boukreev was not solo climbing on Annappurna.
Thanks for the clarification, but solo or not attempting Annapurna in winter is still boarding on if not totally insane.

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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Tom
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PostSat Jan 20, 2024 12:07 am 
I'm not sure whether to be more outraged by this incident or the grammatical errors.

Anne Elk, idoru
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