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altasnob
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altasnob
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PostMon Apr 01, 2024 11:52 am 
turboag12 wrote:
I question myself if I had done anything reckless to where I could have put myself or others in a compromised position.
I estimate that 50% of people who summit MSH eat their sandwich too close to the rim. Most get lucky, some don't.

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Cyclopath
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PostMon Apr 01, 2024 12:00 pm 
turboag12 wrote:
https://1drv.ms/i/s!AunkFBOZEb1ggaYXVzc0x94TZ4tNdQ?e=uMoQFp https://1drv.ms/i/s!AunkFBOZEb1ggaYaB29Q_wfZaUBWLQ?e=H1lvEN
Is there any way you could be talked into posting these here or at another site? People who don't have One Drive accounts can't see them.

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altasnob
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PostMon Apr 01, 2024 12:12 pm 
rbuzby wrote:
If you ever find yourself accusing the NWAC of posting sensationalist clickbait, maybe it's time to take a break from the internet for a while.
I'm not accusing NWAC of incorrectly using the word "avalanche" to described this incident. It is obvious that once the media like the Seattle Times spoke to NWAC, they removed the word avalanche from story and correctly describe this as a cornice fall.
Cyclopath wrote:
He's only here to stir the pot.
The person stirring the pot is Randy, who despite being an experienced backcountry skier, is pretending it is normal to describe this incident as an avalanche. No experienced backcountry skier would say, "hey did you hear about the avalanche fatality on St Helens." They would say "hey, did you hear about the cornice fall on St Helens."
RumiDude wrote:
The 2010 incident referenced up-thread was almost exclusively referred to as a fall into the caldera due to cornice collapse.
Whether a cornice fall is described and counted as an avalanche seems wildly inconsistent. The Seattle Times never used the word avalanche in a story about the 2010 cornice fall on St Helens. That fatality did not make it into avalanche.org's list of avalanche fatalities in the US even though it contains the exact same facts as this more recent incident, which is listed. And if we're going to include cornice failures as avalanche fatalities, then what about skiers who, due to collapsing snow, fall into a crevasse and perish? That happened to this guy on Rainier in 2011 yet it is not described as an avalanche, nor is it listed as an avalanche fatality. What's the difference between standing too close to a cornice and having it collapse, and standing too close to the edge of a crevasse and having the snow collapse?

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turboag12
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PostMon Apr 01, 2024 12:20 pm 
Cyclopath wrote:
Is there any way you could be talked into posting these here or at another site? People who don't have One Drive accounts can't see them.
Done. My original post has been modified. Thanks for letting me know.

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Randito
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PostMon Apr 01, 2024 1:14 pm 
altasnob wrote:
What's the difference between standing too close to a cornice and having it collapse, and standing too close to the edge of a crevasse and having the snow collapse?
Hidden crevasse falls have two categories -- 1) Snow bridges formed from a crevasse opening underneath the snowpack due to glacial movement. 2) Snow bridges formed from a cornice bridging an open crevasse during new snowfall with wind conditions. Type 1 problems are more common in the spring and summer. Type 2 problems are more common in the late fall and early winter. In terms of how are crevasse hazards and cornice hazards different -- the one clear difference is that the location of cornices is much more predictable than the location of a crevasse. Nitpicking the language used in the media to describe mishaps occuring in the mountains seems like useless expenditure of energy. IME: The gulf between what the media reporting and my direct experience with assisting the unfortunate persons injured is vast and often quite inaccurate. Having an expectation that the media will report it in precisely the manner that you would write is a recipe for frustration. I use my direct experience with these events and the contrast between how they are reported in the media as a way of calibrating my interpretation of media reports on any other topic. I expect there to be important information missing or misinterpreted in any media report. I consult different media outlets to compose a slightly more informed view of events. e.g. I read both Al Jazeera, Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post to collect information about the troubles in the Middle East. All of those media outlets present information about events through their own imperfect lens.

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dave allyn
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PostMon Apr 01, 2024 2:51 pm 
The preliminary report from NWAC says "he triggered a cornice and fell into the crater triggering a large slab avalanche on the slope below". It's hard to accuse the media of using clickbait for not putting the entire story in the headline.

gb
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idoru
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PostMon Apr 01, 2024 3:13 pm 
dave allyn wrote:
The preliminary report from NWAC says "he triggered a cornice and fell into the crater triggering a large slab avalanche on the slope below". It's hard to accuse the media of using clickbait for not putting the entire story in the headline.
Every time I come to this thread and see that the "cornice vs avalanche" argument is still going, my prevailing thought has been, "... and what stops a cornice fall from triggering an avalanche below it? If we're to consider them to be separate things, couldn't this have still been both?". Oh, look at that.

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altasnob
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PostMon Apr 01, 2024 3:31 pm 
dave allyn wrote:
The preliminary report from NWAC says "he triggered a cornice and fell into the crater triggering a large slab avalanche on the slope below". It's hard to accuse the media of using clickbait for not putting the entire story in the headline.
It depends on the proximate cause of death or injury. If a person slips on an icy slope, bounces off rocks and is killed, and then their lifeless body hits a slope triggering an avalanche, I hope we don't categorize that as an avalanche fatality as well. The dangerous act there was traversing an icy slope, not avalanche danger. When I travel in the mountains over snow, I want to know the avalanche risk. Avalanche risk to me is something that you can try to minimize, but can never completely avoid. Falling off a cornice is something you can always, and very simply, avoid. Avoiding a cornice is something I would do in extreme conditions, it's something I would do in low conditions, so cornice fall danger is irrelevant to the avy danger on a given day. And when I say "cornice fall" I mean a person falling off a cornice. Cornice above you danger is a entirely different danger and should not be lumped in with standing on top of a cornice danger. If we're going to lump cornice falls in with all avalanches, I don't care about overall avalanche statistics. I need to know what is the danger, and stats, for more traditional avalanches of snow sliding on weak layers. That's what I, and every other winter traveler, should care about. With a couple of fatalities from "avalanches," MSH is now one of the most deadly mountains on Earth avalanche-wise, despite being one of the safest mountains on Earth snowpack-wise (makes no sense). This makes it very difficult to compare avalanche danger between regions because places like the PNW, with a huge population near mountains, are more likely to have people fall off of things even during times of low avalanche danger.

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ale_capone
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PostMon Apr 01, 2024 4:18 pm 
Cyclopath wrote:
Randito wrote:
altasnob wrote:
It just perpetuates idiocricy and the overall dumbing down of the human race.
Isn't the more problematic idiocy people that refuse to change their opinion on a subject -- even when presented with clear information that their opinion is misguided ?
He's only here to stir the pot. This is what the ignore feature is for.
I'm not sure which one you are suggesting to ignore. One is a contrarian, the other knows it all, and vice versa. Both seem to enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing. That's what happens when you get a couple lawyers together. wink.gif Both are knowledgeable and have good input. I appreciate their insight, so no ignore for me. I've lost two good friends in simular incidents. News reports list one as stepping through a cornice with no mention of avalanche. The other says cornice fall initiated avalanche. It sucks regardless. The definition doesn't really matter when you lose someone close.

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altasnob
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PostMon Apr 01, 2024 4:31 pm 
turboag12 wrote:
I summited at approximately 10:20 AM on 3/30 (same day as the fatality).
This article (paywalled) says "A group of climbers that reached the top of the mountain around 7 a.m. Saturday found a backpack next to a broken snow cornice near the crater rim. About 1,200 feet below them, they spotted a motionless body, the sheriff’s office said." The body was discovered 7 am so was the fall was on 3/30, very early in the morning, or 3/29, late in the afternoon. I would think late afternoon on 3/29 as that would be peak warming, and peak cornice fall danger. And RIP to Roscoe Shorey, 42, of Washougal, who the article describes as an experienced climber who had summited MSH 28 times previously.

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RumiDude
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PostMon Apr 01, 2024 5:26 pm 
altasnob wrote:
And RIP to Roscoe Shorey, 42, of Washougal, who the article describes as an experienced climber who had summited MSH 28 times previously.
Joseph Bohlig, 52, of Kelso, fell about 1,500 feet into the volcano’s crater while posing for a picture on Monday. A veteran climber on his 69th trek up the mountain, Bohlig was standing on a snow overhang near the crater’s edge when the overhang collapsed." This accident happened in 2010. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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turboag12
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PostMon Apr 01, 2024 8:49 pm 
altasnob wrote:
And RIP to Roscoe Shorey, 42, of Washougal, who the article describes as an experienced climber who had summited MSH 28 times previously.
Incredibly sad. This gentlemen seemed to live life to the fullest. May he rest in peace. Unfortunately, he may have gotten too complacent…his social media shows him standing feet from the cornice edge on the crater rim of MSH earlier this March during his 27th summit:

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solohiker
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PostMon Apr 01, 2024 9:32 pm 
I was thinking exactly that about him and the in 2010 referenced above who perished on his 69th visit. With each trip probably came a little more complacency, sadly, until it was too much. At the risk of feeding the overdone argument of avalanche vs cornice fall - if a cornice fall didn’t trigger an avalanche the skier would have had a decent chance of survival. I’ve taken some pretty long falls on skis and survived where if I had been caught in an avalanche falling the same distance I might not be here today to type this.

I have never been lost, but I'll admit to being confused for several weeks. - Daniel Boone
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Randito
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PostMon Apr 01, 2024 9:40 pm 
solohiker wrote:
if a cornice fall didn’t trigger an avalanche the skier would have had a decent chance of survival.
Not from the crater rim of St Helens -- the cornice collapse incidents from St Helens involve several tons of snow in the cornice itself and then its a 1500+ ft drop down a 45+ degress slope to the Crater Glacier. It is delusional to think such a fall is survivable.

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idoru
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PostTue Apr 02, 2024 5:55 am 
Randito wrote:
It is delusional to think such a fall is survivable.
Is it, though?
Quote:
The cornice [on the Helens summit] broke loose and Slemp dropped about 150 feet. His son began to slide down with him until their friend grabbed him and pulled him back to safety. The elder Slemp landed on a snow bank, but when he stood to climb back up the crater, the shelf of snow crumbled beneath him and he tumbled about 1,300 feet further down the crater, riding a tidal wave of avalanche debris on his hands and knees. At 5:20 p.m. PT, the sheriff's office received a phone call that a man had fallen off the crater rim but was up and moving around.
Sounds like a combination of his snowmobile suit and luck with where he landed are what kept him alive. https://abcnews.go.com/WN/story?id=4651579&page=1

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