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polarbear
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polarbear
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PostWed Sep 04, 2002 8:43 pm 
Well a trailhead permit would mean a permit to use the head at the trail. You're clearly outside the law on this one. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif All these people buying permits just to use the john. Incredible, what next, bottled water for sale? Next time instead of buying the permit at Texaco I'll just use the restroom there dizzy.gif

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Bushwacker
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PostWed Sep 04, 2002 8:53 pm 
Avoid paying anything and just crawl under! moon.gif BW

"Wait by the river long enough and the bodies of your enemies will float by"...Sun Tsu
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Dante
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PostThu Sep 05, 2002 8:58 am 
Another interesting link http://www.freeourforests.org/adpass.htm "Aside from allowing the charging of fees, Fee Demo allows private entities to enter into public/private "partnerships" with the Forest Service and other agencies to "enhance the delivery of quality customer services and resource enhancement." At the start of Fee Demo, the Forest Service entered into a contract called a Cost-Share Agreement with the American Recreation Coalition (ARC), which allowed them to develop fee projects in partnership with the Forest Service. The ARC represents the interests of more than 100 recreation industry organizations, including ski area associations, sporting equipment manufacturers, petroleum companies, tour associations, dozens of motorboat, jet-ski, motorcycle, snowmobile, RV, and ORV manufacturers, and the Walt Disney Company - to name a few. As a result, Disney, REI, and other companies assisted in the design and implementation of the Adventure Pass." There are also a bunch of links to fee demonstrator cases at the bottom. Here's a link to a page by a guy who got a Washington State case dismissed. http://www.wildwilderness.org/docs/yost.htm This is interesting. I'll try to find the Siart case he cites.

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Dslayer
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PostThu Sep 05, 2002 10:56 am 
Thanks Dante-the links are helping me arrive at my strategy which is basically going to be to shut up and make them prove me guilty as oppose to go on a rant about the damn Forest Park Pass and prove myself guilty. For me, shutting up will be difficult--I was really looking forward to making scatalogical comments in court. Even thought about taking a picture.....but ewwwww. Anyway--I was wondering if anyone else has been to court yet on one of these. The prosecutor intern is in Spokane and he/she has to come all the way to Yakima to try me for a $50 parking ticket. There is no mention on the ticket about contact DOL/DMV which is the only worry I have if I don't show up at all which is another strategy I'm considering since the judges seem to be throwing a lot of them out in that event. On the other hand, if I fail to appear, won't there be a warrant put out for my arrest? That would pretty well suck if I get pulled over for a burned out tail light and end up getting cuffed and stuffed over a parking ticket.

"The Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights is my concealed weapon permit."-Ted Nugent
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Dslayer
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PostThu Sep 05, 2002 11:08 am 
Ahhhh-that last link was perfect-put it off until they tire of it.

"The Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights is my concealed weapon permit."-Ted Nugent
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Dante
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PostThu Sep 05, 2002 11:32 am 
Dslayer wrote:
Thanks Dante-the links are helping me arrive at my strategy which is basically going to be to shut up and make them prove me guilty
Based on what I have read, that's what I would do. I would show up an tell the magistrate that I understand I do not have to testify and that the prosecutor must prove I did not pay as required by 36 CFR 261.15. I would make it clear that the regulation says the violation is failure to pay and not failure to display a pass and I would bring a copy of the regulation with me. Then I would exercise my right not to testify and shut up. As a lay person, you can probably ensure you do not accidentally waive your right not to testify by making these points as "questions" for the magistrate. For example: "I understand I do not have to testify. Is that corect?" If he or she says yes, say you will exercise your right not to testify, but have a few more questions. "I understand the government has to prove I violated the law. Is that correct?" "I understand the government is saying I violated 36 CFR 261.15. Is that correct?" (producing a copy of the reg) "36 CFR 261.15 says the violation is not paying. is that correct?" "So, I understand the government has to prove I did not pay. Is that correct?" It's worth a shot. The only way I would not show-up is by confirming by a telephone call and then in a letter to the magistrate that I did not need to be there. I would make the same points or ask the same questions.

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Dante
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PostThu Sep 05, 2002 11:45 am 
DISCLAIMER: None of my posts are intended as legal advice. They should be treated as what they are--the unsolicited ramblings of a stranger of unknown intelligence, education, experience and mental/emotional stability clown.gif dizzy.gif confused.gif eek.gif huh.gif P.S. The only way I would testify would be if I could truthfully say I paid for a pass but lost or forgot it (since the alleged violation is failure to pay a fee and not failure to display a pass).

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Dslayer
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PostThu Sep 05, 2002 12:27 pm 
Don't worry--I accept it as it is--advice....It's just a little daunting to go to court and all. I've been involved in some battles in my other life as the local Union goon, but there's always a little gnawing at the pit of my stomach--I'm just trying to come up with a battle plan that has a chance of success. The last link you posted sounded like a better plan thanme showing up and telling my poop story to the judge-whom I know by the way when he represented our school district in a case.

"The Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights is my concealed weapon permit."-Ted Nugent
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Jim
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PostFri Sep 06, 2002 4:58 pm 
more thoughts on beating it - Better late than never
I had earlier posted some comments about a case in Arizona that resulted in dismissal since the Forest Circus hadn't proven who the drivers of the vehicles were. Here is what I've been able to find on it. I've tried searching the archives of the website for the Arizona Daily Star, but the "archive" search doesn't seem to work for me. If it were to work for you, you could use these words to come up with a search string September 20, 2000: Opponents of Lemmon fee score a win in court In any case, this web link discusses the result http://www.freeourforests.org/newsflash.htm#September00 or this on which is as close as I seem to be able to find as a link to the article http://www.i-world.net/oma/news/fees-az.html

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Allison
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PostFri Sep 06, 2002 5:07 pm 
And I went to traffic court in Ellensburg to fight a speeding ticket recently, and it went like this. According to the police reports: The officer in the airplane reported a GREEN CAR that EXITED the freeway. The officer on the ground pulled over a BLUE car that simply PULLED OVER. When I went to point this out to the judge, I said, 'these guys were obviously after two different cars, there's no comfirming evidence that the guy in the air recorded ME going 86MPH. (I have a blue car, and I pulled over) I added that the color of the vehicle would be the only way for the two officers to confirm that they had the right car. The magistrate told me that 'he didn't know how they confirmed the identities of the cars', and that there 'was evidence enough for him that I was guilty.' Go figure. I don't think my car even goes 86MPH. down.gif

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elkendo
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elkendo
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PostFri Sep 06, 2002 5:24 pm 
speeding ticket
Allison, Why didn't you try using tears against him

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Tom
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PostFri Sep 06, 2002 6:16 pm 
... or you charm? biggrin.gif wink.gif lol.gif

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Backpacker Joe
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Backpacker Joe
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PostSun Sep 08, 2002 10:37 am 
Next time get a good attourney! You'll spend 250-500.00 dollars and you'll get out of it! It may seem like a lot, but the insurance effect is more usually over time anyway. Contrary to the popular beleif of the time, attourneys are a very good thing to have. Everybody hates them until they NEED one! TB

"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide." — Abraham Lincoln
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Dante
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PostMon Sep 09, 2002 10:09 am 
A-T-T-O-R-N-E-Y
There's no U in attorney, Tom tongue.gif The brother of a former co-worker of mine makes a comfortable living fighting traffic tickets. A lot of his clients are cabbies or habitual offenders for whom the economic stakes are even higher. I don't recall his first name, but his last name is Silva and his office is somewhere in Seattle.

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Allison
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Allison
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PostMon Sep 09, 2002 11:29 am 
Tears? In COURT? Nah, I was advised by counsel not to try and argue the merits. That's why I didn't argue about whether or not my car actually can go 86, and the fact that there was a strong crosswind that day that would definitely have slowed me down. Honestly, I don't know how fast I was going. I didn't want the points on my driving record, and I believe the argument I made was cogent. I did try the tried-and-true "didn't get my discovery request back more than 7 days before the hearing" and was offered a continuance. Regular big-city legal arguments don't work with this magistrate, who I've come to find out does not have a great reputation for fairness in Ellensburg. I was last on the docket for the hour so I got to see everyone else face this magistrate before me, and even those who had counsel did not get out of their tickets. The only ones he threw out were the ones where the police report had not been filed, and in that case he has no choice.

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