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#19
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#19
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PostThu Aug 29, 2002 12:27 pm 
Mt. Frank, I work on the flightline. As you know, airplane delivery schedules are not firm and fluctuate from day to day due to a variety of things that are discovered during pre-delivery flights by Boeing and the customer. Many things effect meeting a delvery schedule. During and IAM strike, planes stop rolling out of the factory and the only planes deliverd are those already on the flightline. During and a SPEA (engineer) strike, airplanes continued to roll out of the factory and be delivered.

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Steve
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PostThu Aug 29, 2002 12:41 pm 
I am not in the IAM. I am with SPEEA and am not involved at any level. I used to be in selections but had problems with getting referrals and proper care so we swithed to traditional and got much better results. For our case there were no competant doctors in the Seattle area for the procedure we needed done so the traditional was the only was to go. Remember that managed care makes money by DENYING care they deem unecessary and now as thousands of doctors across the US are suing the HMO's for this. The people running the HMO's get big bonuses when they save money so it is their interest to deny care and this happened to us. As far as the engineers shutting down the company it is nearer to the truth than you believe. The planes that were delivered were already close to being done. NO PLANE can be delivered without DER (Designated Engineering Respresentative) approval which involves many DERs. These guys were all out (with very few exceptions) and the only planes that were delivered were already certified. Out in the shop the mechanics scrapped thousands of $ of parts because no stress engineers were available to analyze damaged parts. Worst of all, 90% + of the customer service engineers (except for contractors) were out. These guys answer problems for the operators all over the world. During the strike the company told the operators not to bring their problems to Boeing unless it was absolutely necessary. If you had an airplane on the ground losing $10k per day how would you feel when you got a response, "due to the strike we won't be able to give you a timely response". Pappy, I am interested; if continually eroding benefits, loss of local jobs and small wage increases don't entice you to strike, what would? BTW, only one airplane was delivered during the engineer's strike and that was only because the company used TRAMCO DER's to sign off the airplane. The rest of the airplanes that were due to be delivered during that strike were late.

Despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt.
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Allison
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PostThu Aug 29, 2002 1:34 pm 
Pappy, if you're so dispassionate about striking, why not cross the line and go to work? I don't think I could ever do it, even if I thought the membership of my union were looking a gift horse in the mouth (and it appears to me that this is what you think), but it certainly is your right. You also of course have the right to be a Beck objector, but I'm guessing both crossing the line and being a Beck objector would not make you too popular with your colleagues? confused.gif I am a member of a very small union by comparison. People are members because they want to, as our Union Security Clause has seen light enforcement. I wonder how it is being part of a huge union like the Machinists where you have a lot less control over the process of running the union. In a small one the members can actually put their hands on the wheel, so to speak. FWIW, I was the lead negotiator on one of our big contracts last year (keeping in mind that 'big' is only like 3M/yr). We ratified the Master Agreement I think at the September meeting, and had to do the addenda after 9/11. All I can say is we would have had a dramatically different package if the contract came up this summer instead of last. We argued over things that were gojng to cost the employer maybe a couple of thousand dollards total over the life of the contract. Sometimes timing can be everything.

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Tom
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PostThu Aug 29, 2002 1:58 pm 
Regarding health plans, it's a vicious cycle, one us actuaries refer to as cumulative antiselection. Healthy folks tend to go with the less expensive managed care option, while the "not so healthy" folks and/or "heavy utilizers" tend to go with the traditional plan. This increases the cost of the traditional plan, which causes more of the healthy folks to go with the managed care option, and so on, resulting in a price sprial. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what eventually happens to the premium for the traditional plan - I wouldn't blame the employer for passing on some of the cost increase. Keep in mind every employer is in the same boat. If anything, thank your lucky stars that you work for a large employer - small employers get priced out of the market. Many of the issues referred to are facts of life in a competitive world. Jobs will go overseas. Health care premiums will rise (more so without managed care). Wage inflation will not be as high in mature industries, particularly in a soft economy with relatively low inflation. If those are reasons for striking (and I'm not saying they are) I'm not sure what good it will do.

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#19
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PostThu Aug 29, 2002 3:12 pm 
Allison, Ive been on three strikes. We gained some in past strikes but I'm not sure enough to justify them. I don't see this a good time for war with a company like Boeing. I was in a small union many years ago, and yes you do feel very much apart of it if you so chose to involve yourself. The IAM is quite the contrary. Doesn't matter how much you involve yourself, they run the show and just want you be a good soldier and follow orders. I like to think for myself. They don't appreciate it.

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#19
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#19
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PostThu Aug 29, 2002 4:56 pm 
To Steve
Missed your last post Steve.
Quote:
Pappy, I am interested; if continually eroding benefits, loss of local jobs and small wage increases don't entice you to strike, what would?
By benefits I assume you mean medical coverage and as was clearly pointed out, it has not changed for those of us on managed care (Selections). I pay no monthly and no deductable. I really don't give rip if Boeing buys parts from Bob and Roy's machine shop. It is Boeing's call where to buy parts - not the IAM's. IMO. Who has a guarenteed job? 8% bonus, 4.5 % general wage increase, and COLA is a "small wage increase" ? Really. In todays market and business climate? That is crazy!

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3fngrs
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PostThu Aug 29, 2002 5:05 pm 
Hey Pappy, what 'line and shift do you work? Maybe we can get out and do some hiking during the strike if the fed. med. doesn't get anywhere.

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polarbear
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PostThu Aug 29, 2002 7:24 pm 
Managed Care = You pay lots of money to middlemen managers in the insurance business. I often wonder how much of rising health costs is due to paying for all the management and slick brochures you get every year when your company goes to the next provider with the cheaper plan. rant.gif Too bad we can't just have doctors and patients and no inbetweeners. It's too bad the airplane industry is so cyclic. I feel sorry for anyone working for Boeing during this lengthy layoff process. It's got to be really draining wondering if you're going to have a job from month to month.

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Steve
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PostThu Aug 29, 2002 8:04 pm 
Frankly I do care where parts come from and you do to. I'll tell you why: most Boeing trained mechanics understand it's important to build parts and assemblies per design and for the most part do a good job. Now your guys in India, China, Poland, etc don't understand this and when they build a substandard part they say, "oh well, we'll sell it to Boeing anyway". Now what happens when this structurally deficient part makes it onto the plane that your family is flying on? I would prefer that parts be made by competant folks who at least try to care about quality. Now it is a fact that the airplanes are designed with a margin of safety above the limit load capability of the structure so as far as normal operating loads are concerned you can say no problem if the foreign built parts are compromised. What the problem is is that operators may not do a good job at properly maintaining their aircraft (all you have to do is look into the anual crash reports of Flight Int'l magazine to see) and this is particularly the case with low budget operators. I could give hundreds of examples of this being the case. The obvious ones that come to everyone's mind is the JAL 747 where everyone died due to a bad aft pressure bulkhead repair. Another being the MD-10 crash where the engine was improperly installed causing the engine to rip off taking the leading edge structure with it. All aboard died in both cases. Both were caused by poor maintenance practices. That being the case I do care that Boeing engineers and mechanics perform the bulk of the work because they know what they are doing more than someone in Indonesia, Mexico or other places that have no experience in aerospace applications. If Boeing continues to degrade contract wages+benefits packages, what kind of quality people do you think they will retain. How important is it to you that qualified people design and build the plane you will be flying on?

Despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt.
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#19
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#19
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PostFri Aug 30, 2002 8:05 am 
Steve wrote
Quote:
Frankly I do care where parts come from and you do to
So now you are speaking for me? I think your last post clearly points out how what you have said regarding the Machinists situation is MEANINGLESS!

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Steve
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PostFri Aug 30, 2002 9:37 am 
The two example I gave support my case that maintenance is statistically a bigger issue than parts quality. However, poor quality parts from foreign operators is not a scare tactic it is real. Having been in the supplier department for a while and knowing others in it I can tell you that parts come in that are woefully inadequate from a structural standpoint. Fortunately, for the cases I know of the parts were rejected and were not installed on the airplane. Yes foreign and domestic quality has been a problem but I believe that as Boeing chooses more of the suppliers to be in thrid world countries we will see quality being a bigger issue. As far as the "business realities" that is being spewed consider this: Last year Boeing had a stock buyback program where they spent $10 billion that apparently only was to artificially inflate the stock price for the executives benefit. That was enough money to develop a 757/767 replacement that would undoubtably be superior to the A330/A320 yet it shows that the company is more interested in looking good to Wall Street for the short tetm than investing in future profitability. The same thing that drove MDC out of business and now they are running the Boeing company. The old line of them not having any money is a crock. Boeing continues to make 10%+ profit margin even now and to them that is more important than keeping their local employees.

Despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt.
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rubberlegs
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PostFri Aug 30, 2002 11:45 am 
Hey Steve, we are working on 757/67 replacements. That has been in the news plenty of times. It has to be a lot cheaper or efficient than the existing airplanes, or the development costs won't be recuperated. It ain't an easy job so it will take considerable time -- years. Job security for us developers though! Many companies are buying back their own stock, at bargain prices. Makes good business sense. In a capitalist economy, businesses are here to make money, not be charity providers. Supply and demand will dictate wages and benefits. Economies of scale or culture will also dominate our lives. Look at our standard of living, now that we have Costco type warehouses selling foreign goods. Yeah, the mom and pop lifestyle of 100 years ago is going away. Sad, but this is what our culture promotes. Either machines, or low-income workers will make our products. But it gives us a lot more time for hiking than our great grandparents had.

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Steve
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PostFri Aug 30, 2002 12:46 pm 
If you are referring to the 20XX program; yes I have known about that for almost three years now and you can just about use both hands to count the number of people on that "program". Right now the company is not seriously investing in it as they should be esp compared with Airbus. I agree with your other points although I still believe that Boeing should be investing heavily in a new program to compete with Airbus rather than a stock buy back. Anyway for those who think Boeing will not benefit from a strike might want to read the article in Business Week. Here is an excerpt from the article: As a result, Boeing could save a bundle of money if it shuts down production for a while. A walkout would allow it to delay aircraft deliveries, helping to dry up the excess supply of commercial jetliners that's forcing Boeing and rival Airbus to offer deep discounts. A delay would also prevent the value of used aircraft from plunging. With few new orders trickling in this year, Boeing could conserve its shrinking contractual backlog, a key measure of future business. The backlog is down by nearly a third since 2000, to $66 billion. "Never before has a strike been less threatening to Boeing," says Joseph Campbell, a veteran aerospace analyst for Lehman Brothers. If the machinists do walk, a strike could last three to four months, say industry experts. Two of the last four contract negotiations led to IAM strikes, and many members still carry grudges. Boeing could lose some market share to Airbus, but with few new orders being placed, the damage might not be too great. Campbell says a prolonged strike would probably slice deliveries by about 25 aircraft this year, which would only trim about 20 cents off the $3.15 in earnings he anticipates. The longer-term outlook on morale is murkier. But Boeing appears willing to risk strained employee relations to claw back some of the high costs it gave away four years ago.

Despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt.
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rubberlegs
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PostFri Aug 30, 2002 3:51 pm 
Steve, your "both hands" tally is way, way off... but this ain't the place for that discussion. Let's just say there is always substantial investment on future products. We'll be ready when the timing and markets are right. Hey, the bugs might get severely reduced if the predicted freezing level really gets to 6000' next week.

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