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Joey verrry senior member
Joined: 05 Jun 2005 Posts: 2799 | TRs | Pics Location: Redmond |
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Joey
verrry senior member
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Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:59 am
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jaysway, HikingBex
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fourteen410 Member
Joined: 23 May 2008 Posts: 2629 | TRs | Pics
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Here's a screenshot from the Lassen NP visitor center webcam earlier this week. Yikes.
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Ski ><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 12832 | TRs | Pics Location: tacoma |
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Ski
><((((°>
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Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:47 pm
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Since May 1, 2021 there have been over 20 different threads created with "FIRE" in the thread title.
This is nothing unusual - it's an annual thing on nwhikers.net
So I have to wonder: How many more years will it take before people accept the fact that you don't get to have lush green "old growth" forest everywhere, and that forest lands need to be managed or they will ultimately either burn or fall down?
When does that reality sink in?
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
Chief Joseph
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
Chief Joseph
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Cyclopath Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012 Posts: 7754 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:23 pm
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Isn't it "managing" the woods that got us into this situation to begin with?
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Ski ><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 12832 | TRs | Pics Location: tacoma |
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Ski
><((((°>
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Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:44 pm
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chicken? or egg?
but thanks for that old canard... it's always good for a laugh.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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kw Member
Joined: 30 Sep 2020 Posts: 84 | TRs | Pics Location: Bellevue |
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kw
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Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:45 pm
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I don't think blaming forest fires on old growth forests is the take you think it is.
Sore Feet, Cyclopath
Sore Feet, Cyclopath
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Ski ><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 12832 | TRs | Pics Location: tacoma |
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Ski
><((((°>
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Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:01 pm
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^ The American landscape was intensively managed by Native Americans for millennia.
Please feel free to disregard that fact in an attempt to support your nonsensical argument.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
Chief Joseph, treeswarper
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
Chief Joseph, treeswarper
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Schroder Member
Joined: 26 Oct 2007 Posts: 6723 | TRs | Pics Location: on the beach |
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Schroder
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Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:11 pm
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Ski wrote: | So I have to wonder: How many more years will it take before people accept the fact that you don't get to have lush green "old growth" forest everywhere, and that forest lands need to be managed or they will ultimately either burn or fall down? |
How do you think they're not managed?
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Schroder Member
Joined: 26 Oct 2007 Posts: 6723 | TRs | Pics Location: on the beach |
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Schroder
Member
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Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:12 pm
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Ski wrote: | The American landscape was intensively managed by Native Americans for millennia. |
Which they "managed" by burning them down
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treeswarper Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 11279 | TRs | Pics Location: Don't move here |
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:27 pm
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Schroder wrote: | How do you think they're not managed? |
Walked through much National Forest lately? Doghair, weakened trees crowded together, and this is also part of it, roads either not maintained or decommissioned so it takes longer to send folks in, etc. etc. The usual. And yes, the hotter weather adds another factor to the recipe. Now the crap burns hotter and spreads faster.
I'm resigned to the fact that our summers will be filled with smoke from now on. I'm trying to figure if and where to move to. That's how bad it is. I realize that when the smoke stays east, it doesn't exist for most of you folks. But my cough and raw throat say otherwise. I've been depressed because I can't get to my usual go to camping areas. I'm not sure if they've burned up or not either. Maybe it's time to move on to a less fiery part of the country. Unfortunately, CNN announced that one of my choices was the ideal place to move to....I'm bummed.
Right now we are having a thunderstorm, but it poured rain for a few minutes and is starting to do so again. Maybe that'll do it and we'll get our seasonal amnesia again, and tomorrow the fire folks can start the joyous job of picking up filthy muddy hose and accessories that must be done at the end of the mayhem.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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kitya Fortune Cookie
Joined: 15 Mar 2010 Posts: 842 | TRs | Pics Location: Duvall, WA |
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kitya
Fortune Cookie
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Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:34 pm
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Reality is that wildfires are actually more rare in real lush old growth forest, and the problem is that we don't have many of them left. Anyone who is thinking that logging the forest reduces fires is completely misguided. Largest fire in WA state history was last year labor day fire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Washington_Labor_Day_fires) and it burned through mostly recently logged forest and brush. Second growth forests are way drier and more prone to fires than old growth forest for obvious reasons - young trees and brush need more water for growing, dry up faster in summer heat and have less natural protections from fire. If anything, to reduce forest fires, we need to preserve as much old growth forests as possible.
Traditional burning techniques do not burn the old growth forest, they burn the underbrush. Logging does the opposite. We don't need more logging, in fact we must stop all logging. Unlike logging, we definitely need more burning of the brush in the Spring though.
valleyjo, RayD, Cyclopath
valleyjo, RayD, Cyclopath
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treeswarper Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 11279 | TRs | Pics Location: Don't move here |
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:42 am
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kitya wrote: | Reality is that wildfires are actually more rare in real lush old growth forest, and the problem is that we don't have many of them left. Anyone who is thinking that logging the forest reduces fires is completely misguided. Largest fire in WA state history was last year labor day fire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Washington_Labor_Day_fires) and it burned through mostly recently logged forest and brush. Second growth forests are way drier and more prone to fires than old growth forest for obvious reasons - young trees and brush need more water for growing, dry up faster in summer heat and have less natural protections from fire. If anything, to reduce forest fires, we need to preserve as much old growth forests as possible.
Traditional burning techniques do not burn the old growth forest, they burn the underbrush. Logging does the opposite. We don't need more logging, in fact we must stop all logging. Unlike logging, we definitely need more burning of the brush in the Spring though. |
Good job of googling. What you haven't noted, is that there is a major difference between Eastern WA forests and Western WA forests. The Labor Day fire in this area burned mostly through sagebrush and a bit of scattered timber. I watched the fireball going on the other side of the river. It was wind driven. The cause of it has never been revealed, I assume that the tribal agency does not know.
Second growth forests on the westside aren't that prone to fires. Not like eastside forests. Of course, I think we have different visions of what second growth is. I think of western second growth as even aged, with trees around 16" diameter, ready for a thin or clearcut. The Labor Day fire along the McKenzie river burned through a lot of my version of second growth--at least what I saw from my drive along the river. From talking to people who live there, and had their house burned down, it also was wind driven and a huge beast of a fire.
Old growth west side forests are not fire proof. Douglas-fir is an early seral species and comes back after a disturbance--fire. After it is established, and the forest floor shaded, more shade tolerant species such as Western Hemlock start growing. If conditions are right--east winds and dry forest, those old growth areas burn quite well. The trees have crowns and in a wind, we get crown fires. Look up the Yacolt burn, the Cispus Burn, and the Tillamook burn for starters. If you walk the sides of the Cispus Valley, you'll occasionally see a survivor of that burn still standing. Or a snag. The evidence is there.
It's the eastside that is the big problem. The agencies in charge do not get the funding to run fire through the woods frequently enough to keep the brush and doghair levels down. Not to mention that many of the locals don't want burning to occur as it ......smokes things up and can get away and cause problems. Mechanical treatment also need to have a large budget, and that has never happened. Politicians make promises, but don't follow through. The fuels reduction in the past was done with money from timber sales, but that doesn't happen anymore either. Due to all the suppression in the past, we have a large forest of crowded, unhealthy trees. Add to that the fact that the Forest Service has downsized so it can't supply as many fire crews as in the old times, and the deterioration of the forest roads, and we've got a situation that is more dangerous than in prior years.
Hope this doesn't get this deleted, but I look at Covid in the same way. Armchair experts influence the "management" and the people with the actual education in the subject and experience are ignored. Touchet'.
As to your comment that we must stop all logging? That's just ignorant. Where are you going to find boards for your projects ?
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Sculpin Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2015 Posts: 1377 | TRs | Pics
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Sculpin
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Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:39 am
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Cyclopath wrote: | Isn't it "managing" the woods that got us into this situation to begin with? |
That's right. This is an excellent summary of how we got here:
https://www.amazon.com/Forest-Dreams-Nightmares-Weyerhaeuser-Environmental/dp/0295975504/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=forest+dreams%2C+forest+nightmares&qid=1629555773&s=books&sr=1-1
Things are a bit different in northern California. The valuable trees were cut in the first round. Now there is very little marketable timber in those areas. Pine species need to be big because only the heartwood has much value.
This year, northern California found itself in a situation similar to 1910 in the Idaho/Montana region. That was the year of the Great Fire, the largest in US history. Fuel moisture was extremely low when the lightning and hurricane-force winds hit. This year northern California got 6% of the average snowpack, and the fire managers there say that the fuels are as dry as they would typically be in late September...but with August temperatures and day length.
Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir
Cyclopath
Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir
Cyclopath
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Schroder Member
Joined: 26 Oct 2007 Posts: 6723 | TRs | Pics Location: on the beach |
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Schroder
Member
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Sat Aug 21, 2021 8:53 am
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treeswarper wrote: | Walked through much National Forest lately? Doghair, weakened trees crowded together, and this is also part of it, roads either not maintained or decommissioned so it takes longer to send folks in, etc. etc. The usual. And yes, the hotter weather adds another factor to the recipe. Now the crap burns hotter and spreads faster. |
Yes, as a matter of fact I camped recently in the Lassen National Forest near the Feather River where the worst of the fire is. It's been heavily logged and there are no trees crowded together. It's all fuel on the ground. What are you going to do for that - rake the forest?
There's no way you can remove all the fuel that feed these fires with the drought conditions we've experienced. The big fires that swept through your area last year and did so much destruction to homes and towns were all grass fires.
RayD, Cyclopath
RayD, Cyclopath
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Ski ><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 12832 | TRs | Pics Location: tacoma |
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Ski
><((((°>
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Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:13 am
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thanks for your effort to clarify a few points with facts, treeswarper.
unfortunately it doesn't appear the audience is ready to listen, though.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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