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TeeJay Sofa King
Joined: 11 Jul 2005 Posts: 586 | TRs | Pics Location: 2 weeks from everywhere |
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TeeJay
Sofa King
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Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:02 am
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$1600.00 for a pair of boots is pretty steep. I don't mind paying a premium for a quality product...but for $1600.00 the boots should be able to walk on their own and carry my pack.
It is not in the nature of politics that the best men should be elected. The best men do not want to govern their fellowmen. -- George MacDonald
It is not in the nature of politics that the best men should be elected. The best men do not want to govern their fellowmen. -- George MacDonald
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Malachai Constant Member
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 16105 | TRs | Pics Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
Or at least be able to walk atop the Suiattle
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Charlie Van Gorkom cordwainer
Joined: 01 Oct 2009 Posts: 15 | TRs | Pics Location: North West B.C. |
Wish I could make them cheaper for you! The materials cost $350 and they take about 50 hours of very skilled handwork to produce per pair.
This has been my sole income for 34 years,
I need to buy groceries too!!
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Backcountry Member
Joined: 20 Jul 2009 Posts: 183 | TRs | Pics Location: Bonney Mullet |
Charlie, I admire your craftsmanship and attention to detail! Sadly many of these "old world" skills are slowly disappearing!
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Charlie Van Gorkom cordwainer
Joined: 01 Oct 2009 Posts: 15 | TRs | Pics Location: North West B.C. |
Thank-you, Backcountry. I would join the world in bidding good riddance to old world technology and skills, but for a couple of things:
15% of the world's feet cannot comfortably fit the computer generated bell curve "norm" the robot mass bootmakers make (mostly in china)
and, Human skin has not changed--the sythetic toxic chemicals of many boot materials slough and chafe the skin right off the good hiker,
and, the human gait has not changed--not every one walks the same, feet don't flex the same, etc.
and,there are injuries, bunions, arthritus, deformities, partial amputations, etc.
All making the custom handmade boot a terrible necessity for the avid outdoor athletic hiker!
And this is where I come in.
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joker seeker
Joined: 12 Aug 2006 Posts: 7953 | TRs | Pics Location: state of confusion |
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joker
seeker
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Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:40 am
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Ditto on the admiration for the skills. I have not called to confirm, but saw an online review from earlier in 09 saying Limmer charged $600 for their custom fit boots. I would imagine that they have pretty similar materials in the boots, so presumably similar material costs. Leaves me wondering if they're simply accepting the low wage of $6/hr (versus more like the apparent $24 for Charlie, which is certainly not prince's wages), or are they somehow just a lot faster in their craftsmanship, or are these boots somehow constructed that much better? $6/hr was what many journeyman woodworkers seemed to be getting for their hard-earned skills in the early '80s, and it seemed pretty sad way back then (and an inspiration for me to shift from woodworking to computers, since I found both to be fun - I was only getting $4.50 an hour as I was still quite new at it and so both slower and not as able to do more complex tasks as these amazing $6/hr guys)...
In any case, I'm happy to hear that you've managed to find enough of a market at that price to keep you well backordered. But I imagine you're also not surprised to hear the majority of hikers gasp at the price, particularly when the off-the-rack boots seem to be serving them well enough. Having worn Limmers for 2 decades, I do understand the difference, but as noted above, also have found a boot that adequately fits my foot among the current robot-crop (after trying many different models), and I appreciate the ligher weight of these admittedly flimsier boots.
edited to add: ...but if you have a fit problem that can't be resolved "off-the-rack" and you consider the longevity of these custom boots (which I'm sure will last past multiple pair most store-bought boots), the value equation is really not that bad.
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Chief Joseph Member
Joined: 10 Nov 2007 Posts: 7745 | TRs | Pics Location: Verlot-Priest Lake |
Hey Charlie, maybe you could get some elves to help you out since you have back orders?
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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Conrad Meadow bagger
Joined: 25 Aug 2006 Posts: 2298 | TRs | Pics Location: Moscow, ID |
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Conrad
Meadow bagger
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Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:22 am
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joker wrote: | versus more like the apparent $24 for Charlie |
I suspect Charlie would confirm that that $24/hr estimate is way high, if you derived it from his materials and time-per-boot figures. It seems to ignore likely large amounts of other business overhead (both time and $).
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Charlie Van Gorkom cordwainer
Joined: 01 Oct 2009 Posts: 15 | TRs | Pics Location: North West B.C. |
Good post, Joker!
I am not an authority on what Limmer does and does not do. I have read that their uppers are made overseas by robots and then they custom fit them to the customers here when they put the soles onto them.
I might be wrong on this, and please forgive me if I am. They DO make a good boot for the price!
What I do is easier for me to talk about. Each of my boots is designed start to finish for the foot that will wear it and the conditions he would generally use them in.
I also guarantee a perfect fit--this includes making another pair of boots, rebuilding or your money back--which I have heard Limmer does not do. (again, this is what people have told me--hearesay only)
And my boots EACH include a custom made orthotic footbed that has been highly praised for its effectiveness and utter comfort.
I could not do this if I did not get constant feedback from my clients telling me that every penny spent was worth it.
A majority of my clients own more than one pair, some have three or four, which would include the Yukon Snow boots as well as the various hikers.
I appreciate your comments and insights, your questions are good and observations right on!
I've got to get back to work! I'm rebuilding a pair of Yukon snow boots for a forester that I made for him more than 20 years ago. He wears them for work!
BTW it is typical that I repair my boots for the first time for clients after 10 to 20 years of hard use. The soles often only last about 8 years.
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joker seeker
Joined: 12 Aug 2006 Posts: 7953 | TRs | Pics Location: state of confusion |
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joker
seeker
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Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:33 am
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That all makes good sense. Thanks for the reply. Dunno about who makes the uppers, but Limmer at least used to take boots back for a refund if they didn't fit right (and presumably you could opt to start over with a new pair). But that was back in the '70s (these boots really do last, folks!!); perhaps things have changed.
Conrad - you're right. I was guessing overhead was not way out of whack compared to that which these woodworkers took on (their own insurance, a basic set of hand and measuring tools they bought and generally maintained outside of paid hours..., this does not include workspace but I also assumed a one-man boot shop can be set up in a small space, perhaps even one's home). I also assumed Limmer has similar overhead and was mostfly focusing on a comparison. But for sure there is more on the cost side of most businesses than the materials and hours per-widget. And for sure, something south of $24/hour is not outrageous for a rare and finely honed skill.
And to underscore the comment I added to my post above, for the right person, I believe that $1600 for these boots is actually a reasonable value (longevity plus fit you may not be able to get otherwise, which can make the difference between permablisters and comfiness, which was where I was at in the '70s with my wide feet).
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Charlie Van Gorkom cordwainer
Joined: 01 Oct 2009 Posts: 15 | TRs | Pics Location: North West B.C. |
Yes, my market niche is large and strong and is made up largely of those whose feet do not fit the standard available sizes.
I get the wide feet/narrow heel, extra long and narrow, extra small and short, etc.
These people are dedicated hikers and so grateful to get something they can be comfortable wearing for the first time in their lives.
I really feel for them, as my feet fall into that category, as well.
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Charlie Van Gorkom cordwainer
Joined: 01 Oct 2009 Posts: 15 | TRs | Pics Location: North West B.C. |
The Unforgiven, What can I say? Would YOU like to wear booties made by an elf?
Besides, I enjoy having a backlog of orders--gives me a sense of security, like I might be able to eat next month!
To get here, I did years of the starving artist thing, preferring freedom and self-employment to anything else. I was born an artist, which makes me a poor fit in the corporate world!
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Chief Joseph Member
Joined: 10 Nov 2007 Posts: 7745 | TRs | Pics Location: Verlot-Priest Lake |
Hey don't knock the elves. I think {like me} they are union workers and take pride in their work.
I mentioned to an old friend of mine today who had a boot/shoe repair business that I read about these $1600 boots.
His response was, "if they are comfortable then they are easily worth it".
I for one am happy that I have average feet. Right now I am into ultralight but I am in the market for some crampon compatible all-leather boots.
$1600? Not quite that serious,......yet.
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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Charlie Van Gorkom cordwainer
Joined: 01 Oct 2009 Posts: 15 | TRs | Pics Location: North West B.C. |
Unforgiven, sounds like you have wise friends in high places!! You can be thankful your feet are average!
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jenjen Moderatrix
Joined: 30 Jun 2003 Posts: 7617 | TRs | Pics Location: Sierra stylin |
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jenjen
Moderatrix
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Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:10 pm
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joker wrote: | I imagine you're also not surprised to hear the majority of hikers gasp at the price, particularly when the off-the-rack boots seem to be serving them well enough. Having worn Limmers for 2 decades, I do understand the difference, but as noted above, also have found a boot that adequately fits my foot among the current robot-crop (after trying many different models), and I appreciate the ligher weight of these admittedly flimsier boots.
edited to add: ...but if you have a fit problem that can't be resolved "off-the-rack" and you consider the longevity of these custom boots (which I'm sure will last past multiple pair most store-bought boots), the value equation is really not that bad. |
Being the owner of a hard-to-fit pair of feet... The price tag doesn't make me flinch at all. I just know how much I need to save up while I grit my teeth and lose toenails. (crunched toes don't hurt as much as really deep heal blisters - that's the alternative)
When you first think about custom boots, the price tag makes you feel like a real wimp. "It's only feet! Everybody's feet hurt while backpacking. A blister never hurt anybody." Those are the thoughts that go through your mind. As the years go by, and the blisters don't stop - no matter what brand of boot you try, how well fit the boot is, how well broken in the boot is - the thinking starts to change. I decided to go with a boot that's a bit too small for my foot. That stopped the heal blisters but my toes really take it in the shorts. After years of my toes constantly hurting - every single downhill step no matter what I try...
My next boots will be custom. No question about it.
I envy people with standard-sized feet. I envy people with arch structures strong enough that they don't need arch supports and can backpack in tennis shoes. I really wish that was my reality...
If life gives you melons - you might be dyslexic
If life gives you melons - you might be dyslexic
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