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MtnGoat
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Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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 Tue May 05, 2020 5:43 pm |
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| Randito wrote: | | Sheriff's have been known to be ignorant of the law and even to intentionally violate the rights of citizens. E.G.
I see you haven't bother to cite any case law about whether the state can lawfully regulate public spaces. Sounds like you are punting on that. |
That's true. And both Federal and State authorities have been known to do the exact same thing. So rather than argue some people did something bad so this guy might do something bad, perhaps it would be better to point out the intentional rights violations you may perceive.
As for punting, it's already covered under Bill of Rights what the gubmint can lawfully regulate. Articles 1,4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 would seem to be applicable to me in various cases we're discussing.
The regulation of public spaces does not extend to actions violating the Bill of Rights, and pre restraint for harm which *may* occur, and in fact harm the possibly harmed can prevent merely by choice, is a lousy stand in for refusing to choose protective measures which suit ones concerns without expectation to tell other innocent citizens what to do, or else.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Tue May 05, 2020 5:49 pm |
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| Roly Poly wrote: | | Gregory, aren’t you on a slippery slope suggesting that some groups of people are not worthy of continued life? So immunocompromised people should not be protected, or people with health issue? And that those groups should start being grateful to the young, the group worthy of continued life?
Mt Goat, is like to see how you think this is going to play out when the infections and deaths double or worse? You go on and on about stuff too boring for me to even read without sharing how you think this will play out if everyone goes back to work? Give us details! Do you think the virus is going to “miraculously disappear in the warmer weather “ or do you think it’s going to get a lot worse but so what because you’ll be OK living in the boonies? |
How it plays out...restrictions are lifted and those who feel susceptible, fearful, or even strongly concerned take actions consistent with said concerns. They don't go out now, they choose not to go out until risks as they perceive them decline, or they adopt a mix of that plus appropriate protective measures. The result is folks wanting to not take the risks not taking them, same as now, and those who decide to, taking the risks...which merely means folks wanting to be safe at home as they view it, remain safe at home as they view it just like now...but allow others the freedom not to.
When I say restrictions are lifted, I do not mean that buisness or individuals cannot choose to act upon policies for themselves, their buisness, or their property. All are theirs. If they wish to require masks for entry, enforce social distancing, cut the number of their restaurant tables in half or less, great, that's their choice. There is no 'right' as I see it to enter a buisness on your terms not the owners.
There is no zero death or zero harm alternative here. It is not a case of protect everyone from themselves and others and zero harm, or massive harm. It is a case of the harm being worse than the cure. People losing everything they've worked for is a systemic harm at all levels because people have to eat and do a lot of other things which require money.
"Harm" is a malleable and subjective term I dislike applying in these situations for precisely those reasons. The purpose of govt is not to protect people from 'harm', it is to protect their rights.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Tue May 05, 2020 5:57 pm |
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| neek wrote: | | I'm not opposed to questioning the established advice if it takes the form of thoughtful reasoning as in the article I posted earlier, but if you're going to make it about guns and Trump or make a pathetic attempt at co-opting pro-choice messaging or teach kids antisocial behavior, yeah I'm going to question your true intents. Has nothing to do with being upset, just...unconvinced. Also, great, you found a British scientist who did a bad thing. We could find many examples of leaders and experts who did bad things (with one particularly glaring example in the US), but all that shows is that there exist people in power who do bad things, which is not new. I agree however that leaders will tend to leverage a crisis for more control. If you think about it, that's their job (i.e. control helps them do their job more effectively, which is true of any job). That reality isn't good or bad in itself, but definitely something we should be wary of (c.f. Patriot Act). |
I didn't make it about guns or Trump. And the pro choice messaging being turned in it's head in the only actually accurate message conveyed by turning it in it's head, is fair game.
I also disagree what teaching individual responsibility and the questioning of the abrogation of rights is not only not anti social, it is truly pro social. Truly civilized people don't threaten innocent people into compliance over their own personal values when no rights are being violated.
agree about the patriot act.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Tue May 05, 2020 5:59 pm |
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| Malachai Constant wrote: | | Crimes we go hiking and someone left a steaming pile here so glad for the ignore feature. |
yeah, we can tell ignore is an effective feature... because you somehow saw a steaming pile. 
The only effective ignore feature is the one in your head, should you have the capacity to apply it. At least one other proud outsourcer of self control is also learning this.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 11279 | TRs | Pics
Location: Don't move here |
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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Tue May 05, 2020 6:10 pm |
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I hate to tell you this, but folks here have been golfing, going to the car wash and a few other things that I didn't know were outlawed. Nobody has been arrested or warned? as far as I know. Cops seem to hunkered down if the speeding traffic is any indication. It's hardly a tyranny.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Roly Poly
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Joined: 02 Jan 2013
Posts: 713 | TRs | Pics
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Mt Goat, you obviously don’t understand the concept of public health. But I do appreciate the insight into the minds of the Trump voters. I don’t read your posts. I get about one line into them and them tune out. I don’t even need the “ignore” function.
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Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9514 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Tue May 05, 2020 8:15 pm |
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| MtnGoat wrote: | | Randito wrote: | | Sheriff's have been known to be ignorant of the law and even to intentionally violate the rights of citizens. E.G.
I see you haven't bother to cite any case law about whether the state can lawfully regulate public spaces. Sounds like you are punting on that. |
That's true. And both Federal and State authorities have been known to do the exact same thing. So rather than argue some people did something bad so this guy might do something bad, perhaps it would be better to point out the intentional rights violations you may perceive.
As for punting, it's already covered under Bill of Rights what the gubmint can lawfully regulate. Articles 1,4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 would seem to be applicable to me in various cases we're discussing.
The regulation of public spaces does not extend to actions violating the Bill of Rights, and pre restraint for harm which *may* occur, and in fact harm the possibly harmed can prevent merely by choice, is a lousy stand in for refusing to choose protective measures which suit ones concerns without expectation to tell other innocent citizens what to do, or else. |
You blathered incoherently about the constitution, but didn't cite any case law. This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of constitutional law in the US, akin to the fundamental error made by the "Sovereign Citizen" movement , many of you "Innocent Citizen" propositions follow very similar thinking.
Any way, in terms of the state's ability to regulate public spaces, "Heffron v. International Soc'y for Krishna Consciousness" is worth reading up on if you are actually interested in what the law actually allows a state to regulate.
Your argument that the state cannot require you to wear a mask would get tossed out of court as quickly as the various attempts to avoid paying taxes using "Sovereign Citizen" arguments. As has happened in numerous case, e.g. "United States v. Greenstreet" where not only was the case dismissed quickly, but a $5,000 fine levied for filing a frivolous lawsuit.
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MtnGoat
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Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Tue May 05, 2020 8:23 pm |
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| Quote: | | When police showed up in riot gear holding batons to intimidate the crowd full of moms and kids and peaceful Americans, Dr. Cordie Lee Williams, a United States Marine vet, took his bullhorn and spoke to them in a way only another man who has taken an oath to protect the Constitution can. What happened after that is nothing short of stunning.
“In the face of tyranny, in the face of freedom, are you going to sit there in your riot gear against peaceful protesters or are you going to say, ‘You know what? It’s time to stand up for my country. I took the oath of office and it said I will defend [against] all enemies both foreign and domestic,'” Williams began. “I know you’re doing your job, but I’d rather lose my job than lose my soul,” he said.
“What are you going to go tell your little girl or your little boy tonight? That you took a baton and you crushed somebody’s skull that was a mom? Is that what a tough guy does? That’s not what honor, courage, and commitment means in the Marine Corps.”
Williams then gave the officers a refresher course on the Constitution. “What’s a lawful order?” he asked. “When you’re given an order you’ve got to say, ‘Is this a lawful order, or is this a bullsh*t order?’ When something is a bullsh*t order and it doesn’t pass the sniff test, that’s when you say, ‘Sergeant,’ that’s when you say, ‘Colonel,’ that’s when you say, ‘General,’ that’s when you say ‘Governor, I’m not doing that. I didn’t sign up for that!’ That’s what it takes.” |
Integrity and respect over fear and force.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9514 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
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Tue May 05, 2020 8:28 pm |
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Sounds like the police relaxed when the protesters were only using bullhorns and not storming the Capitol building toting assault rifles, but they came prepared for armed protesters as was seen in Michigan.
You still haven't cited any case law to support your argument.
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MtnGoat
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Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Tue May 05, 2020 8:36 pm |
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| Roly Poly wrote: | | Mt Goat, you obviously don’t understand the concept of public health. But I do appreciate the insight into the minds of the Trump voters. I don’t read your posts. I get about one line into them and them tune out. I don’t even need the “ignore” function. |
Nah, we merely don't agree, and as we see that apparently means the disagreer must not understand the 'concept'.
Is there is no way to disagree with it if one understands your formulation of it? That's the formulation going on behind the scenes...presumption that disagreement must be not understanding.
Congratulations on your superior self control over ignore users.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Tue May 05, 2020 8:39 pm |
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| Randito wrote: | | You blathered incoherently about the constitution, but didn't cite any case law. This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of constitutional law in the US, akin to the fundamental error made by the "Sovereign Citizen" movement , many of you "Innocent Citizen" propositions follow very similar thinking.
Any way, in terms of the state's ability to regulate public spaces, "Heffron v. International Soc'y for Krishna Consciousness" is worth reading up on if you are actually interested in what the law actually allows a state to regulate.
Your argument that the state cannot require you to wear a mask would get tossed out of court as quickly as the various attempts to avoid paying taxes using "Sovereign Citizen" arguments. As has happened in numerous case, e.g. "United States v. Greenstreet" where not only was the case dismissed quickly, but a $5,000 fine levied for filing a frivolous lawsuit. |
I never stated it cannot, which shows your lack of understanding of what I actually argued. Before you complain about arguments you dislike and their incoherence, it would be better to pay attention to them so you can demonstrate the incoherence is not on the observers side.
I write what I intend to write and try to choose words carefully. This tends to be overshadowed by pre existing perceptions, such as Brian's mistake in conflating 'harm' with rights regardless of how many times I have carefully avoided 'harm' as an argument in favor of definitions. Here, you appear to somehow think I have been arguing case laws.
Morality is upstream of law and governance, not downstream, and i have never made the argument that power cannot and is not used in any way it's holders can get away with. Wether or not it is ethically defensible is the issue, and *then* one discusses law and compares the two.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Tue May 05, 2020 8:43 pm |
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| Randito wrote: | | Sounds like the police relaxed when the protesters were only using bullhorns and not storming the Capitol building toting assault rifles, but they came prepared for armed protesters as was seen in Michigan.
You still haven't cited any case law to support your argument. |
LOL, no one is 'storming' anything to have basic public access to legislative bodies.
They came 'prepared' for armed protestors in what way other than normal, with their own weapons, plans, and comm systems?
Rights are for everyone, not just the State backed. His comments about lawful orders were succinct and to the point. It is not a given that the no due process abridgment of so many rights on the basis of an 'emergency' with so few objective metrics and continually moving goalposts are lawful orders.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9514 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Tue May 05, 2020 9:01 pm |
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| MtnGoat wrote: | | LOL, no one is 'storming' anything to have basic public access to legislative bodies.
They came 'prepared' for armed protestors in what way other than normal, with their own weapons, plans, and comm systems?
Rights are for everyone, not just the State backed. His comments about lawful orders were succinct and to the point. It is not a given that the no due process abridgment of so many rights on the basis of an 'emergency' with so few objective metrics and continually moving goalposts are lawful orders. |
It's only speculation that the police responded to his words, rather than the actions of the crowd, which did not engage in violent behavior.
You still haven't cited any case law supporting your position on masks in public spaces.
Article VI, Clause 2 of the constitution establishes that the law is isn't what you think and it isn't what I think -- it is what the Supreme court decides. That's is why citing a case decided by the courts is essential to sustaining an argument. You have repeatedly chosen to babble incoherently rather than cite a case that supports your argument.
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Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12837 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
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Ski
><((((°>
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Tue May 05, 2020 11:29 pm |
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| Quote: | | ” One by one the riot police began to walk away until the entire line turned and stood down. While Coleman acknowledged that the police may have left for another reason, he declared, “but we’ll call it a win anyway.” |
Hilarious.... ".. call it a win anyway." Well... of course he would... because he's obviously too stupid to consider that maybe the cops had other business to tend to rather than deal with a bunch of kooks.
If you show up in the State Capitol building with a gun, you're a kook. Full stop.
Normal, rational, sane people don't behave this way. Kooks behave this way. If you prefer to not be taken seriously, continue acting like a kook.
Because.... it's fun to laugh at kooks. 
< edited to add: The Australians that I talk to are calling them "nutters". >
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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fourteen410
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Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 2630 | TRs | Pics
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| Cyclopath wrote: | | Washakie wrote: | | "Why can't we all just get along?" |
Some of the people in here don't want to get along. It's obvious who they are. |
Getting along shouldn't be the primary goal of a discussion. The goal is to hear different opinions and sometimes even challenge your own. Echo chambers may feel good, but they are blinding. I don't often agree with MtnGoat, but I don't mind having an opposing POV.
On a different note, what's with the passive aggressive comments about ignoring people lately? If you're going to ignore someone, great - not sure why it has to be announced.
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