[Allison]

Ron, Thanks for all of that information. Having said all of that, would you agree that the silnylon tarptent sort of thing is not for everyone? As far as the retardency issue, I do know of at least one large tent manufacturer that is not making any tents of silnylon because of the fact that the fabric isn't tent-legal in those 9 states. I'd be very surprised if they are the only company taking that tack.

[Tom]

Hey Ron, so far I haven't had any problems with slippage on the silnlylon floor of my Europa II. I haven't applied any seam seal but I did order my tent seam sealed from the factory (an option you no longer seem to offer). Just curious, on those tents did you apply a coating to the floor?

[RonMoak]

Marylou, There's no one right solution for everyone. Which in my opinion is great! If there were, there would be little need for the rich diversity of options available to the hiker these days. I do feel that in order to properly evaluate an item of gear, such as a tent, we need a good understanding of how it will affect both our style of backcountry travel and our perceived outdoor enjoyment. We all may enjoy the outdoor experience, but those motivations that drive us vary widely from person to person. There are always trade offs for any given piece of gear. For many, the overall increase in comfort of backcountry travel more than offsets any disadvantages of an ultralight tarp or tent. If, however, your backcountry hikes don't require covering long distances between camps, then the value of the weight tradeoff diminishes. I do expect to see flame retardant silicone nylon inside of the next couple of years. I've talked to a couple of mills that are considering. When it's available we'll surely offer it. Another kink in the adoption of silicone nylon is the issue of seam sealing. Silicone nylon cannot be sealed using current commercial methods. Some manufactures are experimenting with using welded seams. Others are using nylon that's treated with polyurethane on one side and silicone on the other. With that method, the tent can then be sealed using seam tape. Most individuals don't want to undergo the laborious process of seam sealing a tent. Tom, we still do offer seam sealing as an option. Though factory seam sealing is in reality just my garage at the moment. When we seam seal a tent, we also place a line of seam sealer at one-foot intervals along the length of the floor. It helps to keep you from winding up like a ball in the corner of the tent.

[Slide Alder Slayer]

I agree with Marylou. No tent is perfect. I think the three season tents discussed are excellent choices for advanced backpackers, but except for weight, I still preferred our previous Sierra Design Stretch Dome and current Sierra Design Omega. Because of weight, we now exclusively use our Stephensons 3R at 52 sq. ft., and soon our new Stephensons 2R at 42 sq. ft., that after sealing came in at 3lbs. 2 ¼ oz. I also agree with ML that a lot of good stuff is coming out next year. There are a lot of improvements in clothing, tents, tarps, and backpacks.

[Hiker Boy]

I also agree that no tent is perfect. That's why I have a variety of them. I pick the right tent to fit the conditions I'm likely to encounter.

[Tom]

[Allison]

Ron, your input on this subject is GREAT! I hope you keep contributing to our little site. We are a lot of nutty gearheads here. I think that we might see Sil become a legal tent fabric in all 50 states at some point. I have heard things about how flammable Sil really is, based on tests, and it seems that it would make sesnse for it to become so. Did you look at the MSR tents at the OR show? I swear I can't remember for sure and don't have my press stuff yet, but they may be one of the mfrs using the 2-sided stuff. As far as seam sealing goes, I did the Sil Seal thing by hand and it was just as easy as doing a regular PU tent. I don't think it's a lot to ask the consumer to seam seal a tent, in fact they all should be done every couple of years just as a matter of maintenance. The more sophisticated user that's going to spring for a Sil tent is not going to have a problem with this. I've heard from numerous sources that the Sil is harder to sew, but everyone's adapting to a lot of new fabrics these days, As new apparel designs using Powershield come out, for example, you can see that the sewing is getting better. Same with the Schoeller stuff. No reason Sil tent mfring won't get better too as the sewers spend more time working with the fabric. If I were going to home sew with Sil I would probably try sandwiching tissue paper between the layers as my first remedy. So since we've got you on the hook, let me ask you this: When I pitch my Sil tent, which is something similar to the HS Tarptent, with floor, I have to pitch it VERY TIGHT, and then tighten it after a while due to fabric stretch. Is this a common problem with Sil? If it is, I wonder if it could be remedied with something non-stretchy "ripstopped" into the fabric. Has anyone tried this? What do you think about the new use of EPIC as a tent fabric, as seen in the new BD tents for S '04? It seems like a great idea, though it may be too breathable for a tent fabric, especially here in the Pacific NorthWET.

[RonMoak]

Marylou, First, stretchy nylon – As most people know, nylon absorbs water and will stretch. It’s one reason the tent fly’s on most commercial tents is made from polyester these days. So it’s pretty understandable that a silicone nylon tent will stretch and sag after setup. One of the problems with silicone nylon is that because it’s so light it feels really flimsy. I’ve had people who are unfamiliar with it, return their tents fearing that it will self destruct in the first good breeze. In fact the process of silicone coating significantly strengthens the base fabric. 30-denier 1.1 oz nylon is pretty weak by itself. Once coated it’s amazing strong and resilient stuff. The common fear that the material is flimsy inhibits most people from pulling it very tight when setting up their tents or tarps. As a result by morning it will have drooped significantly. As long as the tent or tarp is designed properly with enough enforcement at the stress points, it’s very difficult to tear silicone nylon. When it does tear, it’s generally at the seams. When I setup my tent, I generally pull it very taught, lengthwise. After about a half hour, to let the material relax, I’ll retention the tent if needed. Using this method, I frequently find the tent as taut in the morning as it was the previous evening. In fact I’ve had test tents setup for weeks to months at a time, without re-tightening them, and they’ve remained quite taut. After a while they may droop slightly during the night, then return to shape when the morning sun warms them up. As to Epic’s use as a tent fabric, I’d say the juries still out. I’ve had a Feathered Friends Epic shelled sleeping bag since ’99 and have been thoroughly impressed with its performance. It’s been with me for several thousand trail miles and been though some pretty soaked nights and never failed to keep my down dry and me secure. How well it’ll do as a tent material, I’m not sure. I do plan on experimenting with some this winter to see for myself. I should note that while silicone nylon is waterproof, it does have a very low hydrostatic head (ie the pressure at which water can be forced through the coating). It is plenty waterproof for use as a tent fly as there’s not much pressure exerted even by driving rain. On the other hand if you sit on it on soaking wet ground you’ll stand up with a wet butt. It may well be that the hydrostatic head of the Epic fabric is sufficient to use as tent walls. Also remember that canvas isn’t waterproof. If Epic performs similar to canvas, with the added benefit of not weeping when you run your finger across a wet surface, it may provide a suitable waterproof/breathable option for tents. Ron Moak

[Backpacker Joe]

It's nice to get the perspective of a Pro on this site. I'd like to see other manufacturers get in here and give there opinion. Jack Stephenson would be a riot to read! I don't see how or why the "One tent for everyone" question even came up. Of course no one product will do it all. The sil issue fits this site mostly because we tend to be weight conscience, maybe a little techy, and into some fringe things. There are sites where people would have zero interest in a sil tarp/tent. They have no problem carrying 60 pounds on an over nighter too. There are conservative hikers, and then there are those willing to push the envelope out there. TB

[Leafguy]

Thanks so much for the replies. This is the kind of info I was looking for. I really appreciate it.

[Allison]

You may have missed my point again. It is that while I think Sil tents are pretty cool, I wouldn't own one as my only tent.

[Backpacker Joe]

Neither would I. TB

[hshires]

The advice I give regarding tensioning silnylon is to re-tension the pullouts at dusk and/or when it starts to rain. The material definitely stretches a bit when the humidity goes up but properly re-tensioned it will stay quite taut (with non-stretch guylines and firmly placed stakes/tie-offs) until takedown. Henry

[Bob K]

Is that you, Henry Shires? If so, I have your tarptent. I think you have the best tarptents around and would highly recommend them to anyone looking for a very lightweight tent. Unfortunately, I find the small silnylon tents too confining and don't like the condensation. I pretty much go with a plain rectangular silnylon tarp now. I grew up (from 10 to 14 years old) using visqueen tarps in the hardest northwest rains imagineable, so it's like going back to my roots. If you know how to pitch a tarp for hard rain and wind, you can't beat it for summer and possibly 3-season shelter. They are faster to pitch and there's not much of a condensation problem. The thing I hate most, is that without an enclosed floor, you have put up with little critters crawling all over you and your stuff at night, but at least they won't try to chew through your tent. For heavy winter conditions, I use a Hilleberg Akto (Nulla is the 2-person version) or my beloved 25-year-old Early Winters tent (which has held solid a couple times in monster winds, while neighboring Stephensons have broken.) I haven't used the Akto in anything above 50mph yet, but it feels like a very solid tent beautifully designed for winter camping. I bought it because I thought it would be more solid and comfortable in high winds and snow than the Stephenson, Integral Designs or Bibler lightweight tents. Anyway, I hope so, or I could be in for a rude surprise one cold and windy night. (Hilleberg has a shop in Redmond, where can talk to the informative staff and where you can view the tents set up on their display floor. If you're worried about them being obsoleted by next year's models, I'm guessing the new Epic-class tents will be more lightweight three-season tents and it will be a while before they are up to the winter standards of the Hilleberg tents -- but that's just a guess.)

[Allison]

Thanks, Henry. It does seem as the dewpoint goes down, the Sil sags. And welcome.