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Malachai Constant
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Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 16098 | TRs | Pics
Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
Pretty much had it with this string and amateur criminologists. Wake me when and if they catch the perps. 
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
 zimmertr, SpookyKite89  CS
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
zimmertr, SpookyKite89 CS
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Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9513 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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 Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:37 pm |
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| CS wrote: | | altasnob wrote: | | It's also an extremely homogeneous and racist society. I love Japan but it is impossible for the US, and its diversity, to emulate. |
Are you saying that’s why Japan’s crime rate is low? There’s nothing else that the US can learn from what they’re doing? |
Japanese culture is very different. For example there is zero street litter, while there is no such thing a public garbage can. The garbage system is very different, unlike in Seattle a resident doesn't have to "subscribe" to a garbage service to have trash picked up from their home. Rather in the grocery store color coded bags are sold (different colors and prices for garbage and recycling) and people bag it up and leave it in designated places on the appropriate days and the trucks pick it up. But nobody cheats by putting garbage in a cheaper recycling bag.
Another difference, the schools have no janitors. Part of the daily activities of the students is cleaning the school. So people in Japan have deeply ingrained habits toward keeping things tidy.
Japanese culture can also be illustrated by the cliche "the nail that sticks out, gets hammered down" vs the American cliche of " The squeaky wheel gets the grease"
Crime is not absent in Japan, but it is well organized and criminals that seek to "free lance" are "corrected" by enforcers that aren't constrained by various laws that the police must follow.
CS
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altasnob
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Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 1420 | TRs | Pics
Location: Tacoma |
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altasnob
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Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:53 pm |
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Japan also has a very low unemployment rate, historically much lower than the US, even through the COVID pandemic. Lots of reasons for this but when I was in Japan, I noticed that for a road construction project where there might be four workers in the US, there would be 8 in Japan. They don't use signs to tell people to slow down and drive cautiously and instead have people on the side of the road with flags and whistles. In Yoyogi Park in Tokyo, they had people who would sweep the gravel on a daily basis. In Seattle, the city can barely mow the grass in their parks, let alone sweep the gravel so it looks nice. Japan is all about full employment. Bring the US's unemployment rate down to Japan's and I bet you will start seeing less trailhead break ins.
trestle, Anne Elk, CS, Cyclopath
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pula58
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Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 589 | TRs | Pics
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pula58
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Wed Jun 08, 2022 1:02 pm |
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On mountaineers Seattle and foothills alpine scrambling Facebook page:
"Because our last rock scramble was so fun, I decided to hit the Dirty Harrys trail again yesterday (June 5th), but my worst fear happened! The group that is going around breaking into cars at trailheads hit about 20 cars in that parking lot yesterday. Just wanted to give a word of warning to anyone parking at trailheads this summer. The police said, they are looking for valuables, garage door openers, and your address on your registration. So please don’t leave any of those items in your car! In this specific scenario, the suspects were armed and hijacked a car, so things are escalating. Please be safe out there"
CS
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CS
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Joined: 04 Apr 2022
Posts: 176 | TRs | Pics
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CS
Member
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Wed Jun 08, 2022 1:45 pm |
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One paper I happen across, in the summary it mentions citizens are involved in policing as being key too, so that's at least one point for what folks are doing here:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0032258X8305600311
I've been to a number of countries in the area, but not Japan. It sounds like the culture has built-ins that are helpful, and that they used to be a crimey country before importing values from China according to the paper. So it wasn't an accident, they deliberately address it and the paper suggests other countries could import the same ethical values.
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altasnob
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Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 1420 | TRs | Pics
Location: Tacoma |
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altasnob
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Wed Jun 08, 2022 2:01 pm |
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The paper you cite states one reason as:
"Japanese values of interdependence (social harmony)"
That's what I was getting at when I said Japan being homogeneous helps keep crime and homelessness down. Easier for everyone to buy into social harmony when you all look the same and have the same religion. Not surprising that the most homogeneous state in the US, Utah, also has a low crime rate. Utah is the beehive state, not because of the state's honey production, but because Mormon settlers saw the honey bee as symbol of hard work, industry, and community (and blindly following the commands of the queen). I don't think being homogeneous is a good thing (or feasible in the US), so we have to look for other ways to seek social harmony and keep crime down.
trestle, CS
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kiliki
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Joined: 07 Apr 2003
Posts: 2327 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle |
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kiliki
Member
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Wed Jun 08, 2022 2:37 pm |
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| altasnob wrote: | | Japan also has a very low unemployment rate, historically much lower than the US, even through the COVID pandemic. Lots of reasons for this but when I was in Japan, I noticed that for a road construction project where there might be four workers in the US, there would be 8 in Japan. They don't use signs to tell people to slow down and drive cautiously and instead have people on the side of the road with flags and whistles. In Yoyogi Park in Tokyo, they had people who would sweep the gravel on a daily basis. In Seattle, the city can barely mow the grass in their parks, let alone sweep the gravel so it looks nice. Japan is all about full employment. Bring the US's unemployment rate down to Japan's and I bet you will start seeing less trailhead break ins. |
I saw men scrubbing the grout between the tile at Tokyo subway station with a toothbrush. Never seen anything like it.
I also came here looking to see if there was an update...if they caught two women, they must know who the guys are, right?
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Slugman
It’s a Slugfest!
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 16874 | TRs | Pics
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Slugman
It’s a Slugfest!
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Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:07 am |
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| neek wrote: | | Slugman wrote: | | I use my canoe to fish trash out of the water. What about the trash at other places? I guess I might as well not bother, according to the dimwitted quitters arguing incessantly here. |
Do you then go throw the trash in another lake? Logic, how does it work.
| Slugman wrote: | | If the thieves go somewhere else then that is complete victory for all those who were about to be victimized at the monitored location. |
And a complete loss for those who wouldn't have been victimized at the non-monitored location.
Also thank you for picking up trash.  |
That’s the least intelligent post I have ever read. The monitors in my example are not doing anything comparable to tossing trash in another lake. You call that idiotic non-analogy “logic”? I feel sorry for you. I will leave you alone from now on. I didn’t know you are “challenged”.
And you whine that helping one person isn’t helping others? You are doing nothing! This makes you responsible for every problem everywhere, how dare you do nothing.
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neek
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Joined: 12 Sep 2011
Posts: 2338 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle, WA |
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neek
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Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:19 pm |
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| Slugman wrote: | | The monitors in my example are not doing anything comparable to tossing trash in another lake. |
Thanks for the response. If you're confused, chances are others are too, so I'll try to explain more carefully.
Start with the trash example (again, awesome that you are doing that). Assume there is a finite amount of trash, T. Call the amount you pick up S. The trash that remains is T - S, which is less than T, so overall a net good thing.
Now let V be the number of victims. Put a monitor at a trailhead and say they deter C crimes. But the thieves simply move to another trailhead and commit those C crimes. So we have V' = V - C + C victims in the monitored case, or exactly the same as before. True, the set of victims changes--happily for those who leave it, sadly for those who join. Irrelevant from the point of view of someone who simply wants for there to be less crime.
You could point out that there are all sorts of variables I'm ignoring, and you'd be right. The criminals could be left with less overall time for smashing. (Or they could be pissed and be motivated even more.) The monitor could provide crucial evidence that leads to a conviction. (Or they could put themselves in danger.) Enough trailheads could be monitored so that they eventually decide it's not worth it. (Or they could expand their target zone to include locations that were previously not on their radar.) This sort of nuance, I think, can make the discussion more interesting. I don't have all the answers.
In retrospect I may have come across as disrespectful to those volunteering to help, and I apologize for that. I wish you all the best of luck and appreciate what you're trying to do.
| Slugman wrote: | | You are doing nothing! |
For this particular problem, yes, aside from not rewarding the criminals. I have a lot of time on my hands and do a little bit to help out the hiking community, mostly trail maintenance. I could certainly do more.
If my logic still seems inconsistent, could someone point out exactly where?
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 7754 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:32 pm |
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| Slugman wrote: | | That’s the least intelligent post I have ever read. The monitors in my example are not doing anything comparable to tossing trash in another lake. You call that idiotic non-analogy “logic”? I feel sorry for you. I will leave you alone from now on. I didn’t know you are “challenged”.
And you whine that helping one person isn’t helping others? You are doing nothing! This makes you responsible for every problem everywhere, how dare you do nothing. |
Why do you talk to people like this?
trestle, Navy salad, zimmertr, kw
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thunderhead
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Joined: 14 Oct 2015
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So... still no arrests, nor even a description of the criminals for us to keep an eye out for?
breadcrumb
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uww
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Joined: 16 Dec 2015
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uww
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Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:18 pm |
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| neek wrote: | | If my logic still seems inconsistent, could someone point out exactly where? |
You have already pointed it out, if I may be so bold to make assumptions about what this whole slapfight is about, or what passes for logic on the internet.
If you don't disturb the system, there will be no change. But if you do disturb the system, chances are that you will end up with some change when you are talking behavior and not physics homework. As you point out, things may not change the direction you hope- and you probably will learn something either way.
While it may not always work out for you, I believe it is better to take action other than trying to convince yourself things are the way they have to be, or that one small act makes no difference.
I also agree these are cultural issues- but they are not insurmountable or some fantasy genetic property. Perhaps there does need to be a less heterogeneous cultural message about the merits and causes of throwing trash in the lake or disturbing other people's cars.
neek
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car68
Out on the skids
Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 296 | TRs | Pics
Location: Could be anywhere. |
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car68
Out on the skids
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Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:46 am |
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The 2 outstanding suspects were arrested Wednesday. Still in custody as of today. It didn't make the news cycle.
The names and descriptions don't matter. There are plenty others doing the same crimes.
Steal a fast car. Smash and grab purses, wallets, cell phones, etc. People still leave these items in their cars and people are still stealing them.
I'm the guy 911 calls.
reststep, CS, kiliki, Opus, Navy salad, Anne Elk, Cyclopath, SpookyKite89, Schroder, zimmertr, Ski
I'm the guy 911 calls.
reststep, CS, kiliki, Opus, Navy salad, Anne Elk, Cyclopath, SpookyKite89, Schroder, zimmertr, Ski
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Anne Elk
BrontosaurusTheorist
Joined: 07 Sep 2018
Posts: 2431 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle |
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Anne Elk
BrontosaurusTheorist
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Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:40 pm |
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"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
trestle
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breadcrumb
Member
Joined: 10 May 2022
Posts: 111 | TRs | Pics
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| car68 wrote: | | The 2 outstanding suspects were arrested Wednesday. Still in custody as of today. It didn't make the news cycle.
The names and descriptions don't matter. There are plenty others doing the same crimes.
Steal a fast car. Smash and grab purses, wallets, cell phones, etc. People still leave these items in their cars and people are still stealing them. |
Very cool! What is your source?
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