[timberghost]

With all the fires we are having more so lately I was wondering what DNR & Federal policies are when it comes to fire fighting weather it be initial attack and or post initial attack stratagies. It seems in areas where there is populated areas, securing structure protection should be priority. Letting areas burn into wilderness areas or let burn when one is started there really doesn't agree with me but understand they only have so many resources and personell. I would think there is a different approach in east vs. west side of the cascades. Just seems that some of the fires are buring longer and we are left to deal with the smoke and forest closures for longer durations. Some of the fires are the result of smoldering lightning strikes, i.e. Murphy Lakes fire(not sure how they investigate the area's post strike). When I hear some of the old timers talk about this fire or that fire saying it would have been extinguished long before now I wonder if there is really any validity in their words. Of coarse there the theory that the woods are drier or have more fuel in them these days seems to have truth. I did look on the DNR website to see what their policy was and found: DNR's initial attack efforts strive to put fires our quickly; our goal is to see that nine out of every ten fires on DNR-protected lands are out before they ever exceed 10 acres. But this is DNR andit seems the Federal lands are larger fires these days. To do this strategically placing personell and resources would have to be important. I have seen helecopters sitting near Brewster in the past but not sure if that was for crop dusting, etc. I couldnt tell if they were the white and blue color with numbers on them that I have seen on the Bolt cr fire. Any thoughts?

[Jake]

I think they could use water bombers and helicopters to drown out the fires, but they aren't over here. I wonder if people realize the real danger will come in the spring if we have a heavy snow fall this winter and a wet and warm spring. With all the dead trees and brush up there, there won't be enough green left to soak up the rain and snow melt. Thus, it will end up in huge flood damage. To me, this is criminal to let it burn out. One forest service official did say they weren't trying to put it out. I assume he meant they were just waiting for non existent rain.

[treeswarper]

It's complicated. First, think about the locations of state vs federal land. State land has more "front" country and county fire folks often respond, in addition to DNR crews. Here in the Okanogan, those folks have been right on top of fires for the last couple of years. Around Randle, when a fire broke out on private timber land (covered by DNR) the locals were on it and putting line around it before the official fire crews got there. So, there can be a bit of unofficial initial response from locals with equipment. There's a lot of equipment in a logging community, including fire trucks, pumps and hoses. Here, on the east side, the DNR has two or three Fire Boss planes and a helicopter based in Omak. I don't know the other locations, but the Omak bunch has been quite busy this year. There was a brush fire burning near what I would consider to be a Most Likely To Burn Up community and no large air tankers were available from the U.S. so Canadian tankers were used. The DNR seems to be more flexible than the FS. Forest Service and house fires? They used to say that they were not structure firefighters. Now they do wrap historical buildings and set up hoses and sprinklers to protect cabins. The FS response to fires is more based on what is a prior plan for the specific area. However, that can change and has depending on political pressure and weather conditions. The FS does not have near the people power that it had in the past nor does it have the road coverage for getting to fires quickly. You may thank decommissioning projects which are related to a very small road maintenance budget. The FS is a victim of the political promises of cutting budgets/taxes. There's not a whole bunch more that will withstand more cuts. The threat of lawsuits from families of firefighters killed on the job really affected firefighting. After the 30 mile fatalities, lawsuits were filed and crew bosses were held accountable. I don't know of that ever happening in the past, but at the time, heard people with various fire qualifications saying they were through with going to fires because of the new liability. And they did refuse to go so a lot of experience and knowledge was/is unavailable. Add that into the equation. Then add in the weather and fuels. Plus, there is a lack of logging occurring, and those operations are required to have firefighting equipment on site, and used to be used for initial attack when they were nearby a fire start. I'm sure there's more to be added.

[timberghost]

Yea I guess I am just frustrated in seeing the management of the fires on the west side DNR compared to seeing what is done on my Methow property. I look at the fire personell of 200 and see 50 firefighters. That's a whole lot of personell. You see the fire briefings on FB and it's different people all the time. Then to drive thru and people are sitting in their trucks. I know they work hard and given direction but I also still see alot of burning above town. Must just be my observations I guess

[John_B]

Timberghost: The helicopters that are seen in Brewster are not public fire resources. They are used by orchardists to dry off crops after rain to prevent fruit damage by drying them using rotor wash. I know they are used specifically for cherries and I believe they can be used on other crops but I'm not sure about that. Edit: Also to address your recent comment I'm sure there is still internal burning but since it is a sufficient distance from the perimeter there are minimal concerns of that active burning allowing the fire to move outside of the perimeter. Seems like a lot of the terrain on the Bolt fire is pretty steep and ought to be fairly scary to move about in while trees and rocks are still frequently falling down. Jake: While it seems like there is sufficient amounts of water in tanker planes and helicopters to "drown out the fires" there is not any where close to that capacity. Think about how much water you need to put a campfire out that has 10-15" log rounds in it then expand that to trees that are 4 feet wide and 100 feet tall spread over 20 square miles. Even if you cut things back to about 10% of the total that is a HUGE amount of land and biomass that is burning.

[Randito]

I'm not surprised that there are less wildfire staffing on the west side than the east side. Wild fires , especially large ones are a regular occurrence on the east side vs the exception on the typically much wetter west side. If wrongful death lawsuits have resulted in changes in fire fighting practices that place a higher priority on protecting worker safety -- I'm all for that. I'll bet the greater emphasis on worker safety has a positive effect on firefighter morale and retention of the long haul. Given the century or so of fire suppression, I'm not surprised by the larger and more frequent wild fires compared to the '60s , there is big back log of fuel build up in the forests that would have been burned out over the last century without the past fire suppression practices.

[jinx'sboy]

TW has summed it pretty well. Both after 1994 South Canyon Fire (in Glenwood Canyon on the Colo River along I-70) - 14 lives lost - and again after the 2001 Thirtymile Fire in the Methow there were MAJOR policy shifts; with new operating procedures, new safety emphasis, training and protocols. Basically, there is NO amount of acres - regardless of how important they seem - or number of houses, that equate to a loss of life. Yes, it is slightly interesting to hear ‘the old timers’ talk about ‘back in my day we’da had that there fire out in 2 days’, but it’s also an anachronism - the clock ain’t going backwards.

[treeswarper]

Actually, there used to be more people available for fires on the west side of the state. The FS had a lot of timber cruisers who were also fire qualified and could be called, and were for fire suppression along with burning slash. As I've stated before, when there was a Randle District, they could send 3 twenty person crews of qualified firefighters to fires, and most of those folks were what was called, The Militia--fire was not their specialty. Trail crews also could be sent off. Randle had the fewest employees on the GPNF. Those positions do not exist anymore due to budget cuts and the endless downsizing. West side forests could be reluctant to send folks away if the conditions were dry at home. I do know that some phone calls would be made from more powerful people to persuade the local folks to send bodies off the forest. Heard a lament once about "our timber" being much more valuable than Eastern Oregon dead lodgepole. True, but orders came. As for people sitting in trucks? It takes time to mobilize, go over safety protocols, and get word down on what to do. They also are watching for spotting along the road and are there to put those spots out. And, you see the people in trucks. It's easy. You would have to get out and hike into the fire to see the people who are digging line. "Lots of people sitting around" is a familiar complaint of the peanut gallery, along with "if there aren't any air tankers, they aren't fighting the fire." There are legends about fire managers calling in air tanker drops, when not needed just to shut up the complaints and those drops are very expensive. I do not think that the old photogenic air tanker that was painted orange, black and silver is in service anymore. It was good for many picture opportunities, and was usually the plane shown in the newspapers and on TV.

[Ski]

^ My late step-father, up to the day he retired as a cruiser, always carried a shovel and a Pulaski with him in his truck. The mill he worked for shut down decades ago - small independent mill up in Renton. As treeswarper notes, all of these wonderful changes we've seen over the last 30 or 40 years in timber harvesting and forest management have resulted in a dearth of qualified manpower and resources. There's an old saying about "Be careful what you wish for."

[treeswarper]

[Ski]

^ something else he carried with him too, but I cannot recall what it was. You've raised a point that I believe has been missed in all of these conversations which occur annually: The "old boys" ain't out there any more. They're retired or dead. And along with them went that "support network" of local talent - like you mentioned about Randle. I'm guessing Jim Beslow was a player on one of those teams out of Packwood when Randy was the District Ranger up there. (Beslow owned the tow truck in Packwood.) The USFS and NPS are at the very bottom of the totem pole when it comes to receiving congressional funding appropriations, and they've cut their staff to the point that girls with PhD's in wildlife biology are out working on fire lines - an obscene and unconscionable waste of talent.

[Sky Hiker]

Well I will throw in my 2 cents as I can relate to some of this. My Dad was a logger namely tree taller and on many an occasion he was hired by the USFS to fall trees on forest fires. One of which being the Evergreen fire of 68. Like was mentioned a lot of loggers and logging personnel did so in "the day". They used the road building part of logging to construct fire lines, etc. Along with the decrease in logging so went the availability of loggers to fight fires. While alot of the Bolt cr fire is extremely steep territory and fighting it in those areas is not safe. Can't say the decision to let the fire burn to the highway is wise instead of backburning or fighting it but that was their decision. It seemed to prolong the smoke and fire burning situation. But at this point it is what is is and the above temperatures have contributed to the duration. Just last week the fire took off above town of Sky for the 4th or so time but we're able to drop water on it after trying a couple days with hand crews. Seeing alot more woodland fire crews putting out smokes lately. It is a tough job and getting up and putting those dirty, Smokey clothes on again is not fun. I always loved the fire camp food. We did many a fire tools inspection on logging units. Perhaps with the increase in fires and acherage burned, Addition funding will be made. Doubtful.

[treeswarper]

[Snowshovel]

I know of no single case where a PhD is working on the fire in any way other than planning post fire planning and remediation. I’m calling fiction to this whole story

[Snowshovel]

I know of no single case where a PhD is working on the fire in any way other than post fire planning and remediation. I’m calling fiction to this whole story