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zimmertr TJ Zimmerman
Joined: 24 Jun 2018 Posts: 1234 | TRs | Pics Location: Issaquah |
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zimmertr
TJ Zimmerman
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Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:04 am
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I also want to see a large societal push to electric. But I'm curious how that is supposed to work for non-homeowners?
My girlfriend's commuter car is reaching the age where it's probably time to sell and buy a new-used replacement. We would love to purchase EV. But the need to park at, say, Fred Meyer every other day just to charge it. Or to drag a 220v extension cable from our dryer outlet to our street parked car (if that's even an option) seems prohibitive. Not to mention probably illegal under some municipal code. And the cable itself would probably be like $400 at that length/amperage.
Also for the SUV haters my compact SUV gets much better fuel economy than her sedan. And is much safer.
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Ski ><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 12861 | TRs | Pics Location: tacoma |
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Ski
><((((°>
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Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:02 pm
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neek wrote: | Seems like this would just push us to electric faster. Gas is $10.78 in Norway and something like 80% of new car registrations there are electric. Of course there's a bit of a supply issue for batteries right now but hopefully that won't last forever. |
Actually the number is 87.1% of new vehicle purchases.
Here's a rather entertaining video which explains how they went about it:
One has to realize, however, that Norway's electrical power system is about 99.9% hydroelectric - in that they have a real advantage. (We'll forego mentioning the fact that in the process of building all those dams, they killed off all of their native anadromous salmonid runs, necessitating their invention of "aquaculture", but that's a subject for another argument.)
The downside is the current generation of electric vehicle batteries rely on the use of cobalt, which is mined out of giant mud pits by children in Congo - something along the lines of early coal mining in this country, but on a completely different scale of brutality.
The trade-off is we'll have cleaner air at the expense of lots of dead children in Congo.
But don't feel too guilty about it - most of the product is being bought by China.
Hoping I'll live long enough to watch "big oil" go down in flames, but according to executives at Nestle' we only have drinking water for another 30 years*, so there are probably more important things to worry about than how much you have to pay for a gallon of gas this week.
(* for the doubting Thomases (and those whose names are not Tom), here's your "citation": https://www.eating2extinction.com/ )
( but I believe I already covered this in another thread about water extraction up near Randle in another thread a while back.)
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
zimmertr, neek, Chief Joseph
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
zimmertr, neek, Chief Joseph
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Chief Joseph Member
Joined: 10 Nov 2007 Posts: 7728 | TRs | Pics Location: Verlot-Priest Lake |
Everything comes with a price...hydroelectric, kills off the fish. Internal combustion, kills the entire earth through global warming. Cobalt mining for batteries for electric vehicles, more destruction of the earth and slavery and death of children. Truly we were much better off when everyone heated with wood, grew their own food, raised livestock and/or hunted, and either walked or road a horse, I suppose human powered bicycles are ok, can't really think of a downside other than the time I crashed and hit my head. Technological advances come with a heavy price, but people don't seem to care much about that, they want what they want. If they do care, it's usually too late to change or do anything about it.
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
dixon, Ski
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
dixon, Ski
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Cyclopath Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012 Posts: 7768 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:41 pm
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Chief Joseph wrote: | Truly we were much better off when everyone heated with wood, grew their own food, raised livestock and/or hunted, and either walked or road a horse, I suppose human powered bicycles are ok, can't really think of a downside other than the time I crashed and hit my head. Technological advances come with a heavy price |
People died at 35 years old when we were truly better off and a foot injury doesn't mean death by starvation or infection today, but sure.
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Ski ><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 12861 | TRs | Pics Location: tacoma |
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Ski
><((((°>
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Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:48 pm
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^ Well said, sir.
I doubt many people on this site realize just how big the bicycle was in the last two decades of the 19th Century.
Outside of the initial investment, and the nominal costs of maintaining them, bicycles were effectively "free" transportation.
But the North American continent is not the "low countries" of Flanders and Belgium and the Netherlands, and the bicycle was pushed aside with the advent of the automobile.
Chief Joseph wrote: | Technological advances come with a heavy price, but people don't seem to care much about that, they want what they want. If they do care, it's usually too late to change or do anything about it. |
We have chosen to ignore all the warning flags and instead chosen the path of convenience and profit.
I stopped worrying about all of this stuff several years ago when it finally became clear that mankind's end will not come about due to global warming, air pollution, wars, disease, or famine. It will happen when we start killing each other for fresh drinking water.
( material included herein is public domain and/or exempt from any claims of copyright infringement under the provisions of 17 U.S.C. § 107 )
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
dixon, Chief Joseph
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
dixon, Chief Joseph
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neek Member
Joined: 12 Sep 2011 Posts: 2343 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle, WA |
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neek
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Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:00 pm
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Bikes are awesome. I made a conscious decision to bike commute about 20 years ago, and haven't looked back. (It's harder to give up the car when you have a kid though, or take up a hobby like, uh, hiking.)
It's amusing to note, however, that under the right circumstances, biking can emit more carbon than driving.
Quote: | Long story short, if you eat enough meat the extra calories burned by biking can lead to similar emissions as driving a car with good fuel economy |
(From https://keith.seas.harvard.edu/blog/climate-impacts-biking-vs-driving)
Cyclopath
Cyclopath
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Schroder Member
Joined: 26 Oct 2007 Posts: 6736 | TRs | Pics Location: on the beach |
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Schroder
Member
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Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:11 pm
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Ski wrote: | Here's a rather entertaining video which explains how they went about it: |
One thing they barely touched on is the purchase price of a car in Norway. For decades the fees and taxes have been almost 100% on the price of a car. EV's don't have these taxes so they're substantially cheaper - basically on par with U.S. prices.
Ski
Ski
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Chief Joseph Member
Joined: 10 Nov 2007 Posts: 7728 | TRs | Pics Location: Verlot-Priest Lake |
Cyclopath wrote: | Chief Joseph wrote: | Truly we were much better off when everyone heated with wood, grew their own food, raised livestock and/or hunted, and either walked or road a horse, I suppose human powered bicycles are ok, can't really think of a downside other than the time I crashed and hit my head. Technological advances come with a heavy price |
People died at 35 years old when we were truly better off and a foot injury doesn't mean death by starvation or infection today, but sure. |
Natural selection-population control. As for the water shortage-being the death of mankind theory, I tend to agree....that is if a nuclear war doesn't happen first. I glad that I own land in a rain forest, I would not trade my half acre of paradise with my ramshackle shack for a McMansion in CA.
Had a conversation with a young man who had to take out 2 loans to pay for a 30k roof replacement. I salvaged enough metal roofing from an old house in Idaho, hauled it here, and roofed 3 structures for the cost of a few boxes of roofing screws. But, to each their own. People paying 80+K for a pickup truck? In my entire life I have never paid more than 5k and I seem to get around just fine.
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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Cyclopath Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012 Posts: 7768 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Thu Jun 09, 2022 2:39 pm
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neek wrote: | It's amusing to note, however, that under the right circumstances, biking can emit more carbon than driving. |
It shouldn't surprise anyone that sets of circumstances exist where cycling emits more carbon than driving because there are so many levers to pull. If I work from home and don't hike, but buy a new bike every week that was manufactured in Taiwan and shipped halfway around the world that will do it too.
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Ski ><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 12861 | TRs | Pics Location: tacoma |
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Ski
><((((°>
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Thu Jun 09, 2022 6:01 pm
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Schroder wrote: | One thing they barely touched on is the purchase price of a car in Norway. For decades the fees and taxes have been almost 100% on the price of a car. EV's don't have these taxes so they're substantially cheaper - basically on par with U.S. prices. |
Well... of course! They monetarily incentivized the EV to the point where any other choice simply didn't make sense.
My grandfather used to often tell me that the reason the Norwegians were so smart was because all the stupid Norwegians froze to death in the winter.
Uff Da!
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Randito Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008 Posts: 9518 | TRs | Pics Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Thu Jun 09, 2022 6:47 pm
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Ski wrote: | Well... of course! They monetarily incentivized the EV to the point where any other choice simply didn't make sense |
Which is interesting, in that 40% of Norway's exports are oil and oil represents 14% of their GDP. It seems the Nords are able to make policy decisions on a longer time frame than next quarter's earnings report.
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Leafguy Member
Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 525 | TRs | Pics Location: Wenatchee |
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Leafguy
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Fri Jun 10, 2022 7:36 am
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Randito wrote: | Ski wrote: | Well... of course! They monetarily incentivized the EV to the point where any other choice simply didn't make sense |
Which is interesting, in that 40% of Norway's exports are oil and oil represents 14% of their GDP. It seems the Nords are able to make policy decisions on a longer time frame than next quarter's earnings report. |
Exactly.
I watched a documentary on Norway not too long ago on YT. They really made no secret about their EV motives. They were at one time a country with a lot of fisherman. Then they "struck oil". But they did not look at this as an infinite source of wealth for their country, or turn it into a welfare circus. They chose to look to the future and maintained somewhat high gas prices (for Europe at the time) and put the money into infrastructure. There are some very nice public buildings and other facilities. Some of their roadside bathrooms are nicer than a lot of small houses here. I'm sure they didn't show the "bad parts of town", but it was impressive what they have done while making the conversion to electric vehicles in the process.
Sorry, I don't have the link to the documentary.
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Stefan Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001 Posts: 5094 | TRs | Pics
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Stefan
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Fri Jun 10, 2022 1:05 pm
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Norway. Sounds good in Oslo. I wonder what has happened in the further reaches north on Highway E6. What are they doing there?
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Schroder Member
Joined: 26 Oct 2007 Posts: 6736 | TRs | Pics Location: on the beach |
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Schroder
Member
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Fri Jun 10, 2022 1:56 pm
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It seems like everyone complained about this before
Gas Prices. Are they altering your behavior? (thread from 17 years ago)
Be patient. The prices will come back down but likely not until next winter.
I'm more concerned about the food prices.
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Tom Admin
Joined: 15 Dec 2001 Posts: 17858 | TRs | Pics
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Tom
Admin
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Fri Jun 10, 2022 3:00 pm
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I sometimes have the authority to lower gas taxes by $1 at Safeway. I must be more powerful than Inslee.
As the saying goes, choices have consequences. This won't be the last time gas prices are high. 4 years ago I bought a new vehicle. I could have gone with an EV or hybrid but they ware so expensive and the cost/benefit just didn't add up. Found a great deal on a new Jeep, fully loaded for under $25K. It gets surprisingly good gas mileage for a SUV. I still don't regret my choice but I only fill up once or twice a month and ride my bike a lot more in the summer than I drive. I guess hiking trips will cost me a lot more this year.
Cyclopath
Cyclopath
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